SOLVED Proto 2000 0-6-0 Dead Motor (with disassembly instructions)

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Hi all!

My proto 2000 0-6-0 with DCC Sound arrived today. I only paid $99 for it, since the seller said it wasn’t running.

Thinking it was a simple fix(unsoldered wire, maybe motor is rubbing on frame, or at worst, a cracked gear), I bought the item.

Turns out, the issue was far worse. I took the motor out by itself, and realized there was a ton of resistance on the motor shaft.

I figured maybe the magnet inside got unstuck from the side of the motor frame.

After the struggle of taking the flywheel off(motor was too big for my NWSL gear puller), I got the motor shell apart, to find that the magnets have desintigrated, presumably from zinc pest(argggggg!! zinc pest my worst enemy!)

This is a first for me, having a motor fail in such a catastrophic way.

Since the motor is held by a split metal chassis design, I’ll have to find an identical replacement motor.

Does anyone have any suggestions/experience working with a similar issue?

I found a reference image of the motor, from one of those ebay china 12v motor sellers. But I cant seem to find any selling on Ebay.

https://picclick.com/DC-12V-24V-17800rpm-High-Speed-Strong-Magnetic-191946488250.html

Thanks!

Charles

EDIT: wow, what a conicidence that there are multiple active threads on Proto 2000 zinc pest. However, this one is more about where they sourced their motors, since proto 2000 don&#

2

Hi there. It does not need to be exactly the same motor, but finding one would make the job easier. If you go for an alternate 12v motor, make sure to take measurements to ensure it will fit. A flywheel is not absolutely essential. What is also important is shaft size - find one that matches the old one in terms of length and thickness. Mabuchi is a good brand to look for, among others.

Once you have the parts, remove the gear - i use a special puller from NWSL, but you can do it with other tools. Place the gear on the shaft of the new motor - it should be a snug fit. I apply a few strokes on the shaft with a file to give a bit of grip, and glue the gear with CA. Once together, you can attach the motor and gear to the frame using silicone caulk. You might have to build a plastic support.

Good luck!

Simon

3

Have you contacted Walthers? I have a couple of their subway trains, the first made by Life-Like, and they did have replacement motors. I had to contact their service department by email, but they were able to send me a new motor. These were not catalog items, not did I find them on their web site, but they had them.

4

If you would post the physical size of the motor it would help. From your first picture I would guess looking at the worm gear that the motor is between 5K to 6K RPM.

The Mabuchi SF-266 motor above is rated at 7K at 12 volts. I have used them in several steam locomotive with the same size worm gear very successfully.

I use dual motors to replace the single motor in my Rivarossi articulateds. The SF-266 is very close in comparison to the Canon EN22, I can’t tell any difference between them.

I add 8 to 10 ounces of weight to the boilers of my Rivarossi Cab Forwards and they will pull the paint off the walls. (5.8oz drawbar)

5

I don’t know what that is, but zinc is not in magnets.

6

I found a similar motor at Aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33030663093.html

Not sure if it will work without dimensions, but you could try it. You will probably be waiting awhile, though.

Edit: I looked at your ebay link and compared dimensions. It looks the same.

7

I also found this one on ebay. It looks to be the same, but there are no dimensions:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24V-17800RPM-NdFeB-Five-Pole-Rotor-Dual-Shaft-Motor-Toy-Car-Boat-Model/192942409755?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20190920091355%26meid%3Dbe620a6c963349dbbaf9e9033ca37160%26pid%3D100036%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D191946488250%26itm%3D192942409755%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100036.m2109

8

Hi all the motor type was listed as a link in the original post. However, it seemed like everywhere online it was sold out. The ali link above is also sold out. I ended up paying the $14 from the ebay link above. Big thanks to Gary!

Thanks all for the replies!

Charles

9

Update: I paid the $14 USD for the Ebay motor, but the seller just messaged me saying they’re out. ughhhhhhh…

10

[:'(]

That sucks. I was looking for motors on eBay just last night–I’ll poke around and look some more for one like that.

11

Since you did not gave us the most important information (motor dimensions - height, width, shaft diameter - motor length is less important), it is not easy to help you.

But on ebay, there are many motors, different dimensions (and speeds).

Mabuchi 15x20x25 mm, shaft 2 mm

Dual shaft, 12x15,5x19 mm, shaft 1,5 mm

Dual shaft 10x12x15 mm, shaft 1 mm

Dual shaft 12x15,5x19 mm, shaft 1,5 mm</

12

When you are looking for a replacement motor make sure the RPM of the new motor is close to original motor at 12 volts. A high RPM motor won’t have the same torque as the original motor when running at lower speeds.

I look for stall current of at least 1 amp at the RPM needed.

Typical:
Mabuchi SF-266
Voltage: 12.OV Current: 0.04A Stall current: 1.17A Speed: 7200RPM

Less stall current means less power. The motor above is a great motor for replacement in steam locomotives. Most steam locomotives require a 5000 to 6000RPM motor with a worm gear. It would be best to use the existing worm gear on the new motor, a miss match at the worm gear to the axle gear is bad news.

Many of the steam locomotive motors have a 2.3mm shaft so reusing the existing worm gear might not be possible.

I would suggest checking with NWSL for a motor and the correct worm gear for your locomotive. The last thing you want is a problem with the motor.</

13

Charles,

If you cannot find the replacement motor with exact dimensions, or it is complicated to pull the original worm and install it on new motor, or to find a replacement worm for new motor, there is another way. It is a little awkward, I admit, but is relatively cheap.

Why not try to find a replacement neodymium magnet(s), and glue them (e.g. 2K glue) in original motor shell, after remains of old magnets are removed?

As I do not know the exact dimensions of original motor, I cannot know which magnet could fit inside. It does not need to have the same shape (it would be better, but it is impossible to find such magnet) – for motor to work, you just need two magnets of adequate magnetic force and free rotating rotor between them.

For example, for less than 3USD you can have 10 magnets 20x3x2 mm. If motor shell is 35 mm long, then magnets that are 20 mm long could fit inside. Maybe you could fit 4 of them (2 on each side). You can even use a piece of wood of the same dimensions (or similar material), fit it inside and then see if rotor rotates freely.

If yes, for less than 3 USD you can at least try to repair the original motor. Neodymium magnets are very strong, so maybe the

14

People put new magnets in open frame moters all the time and you can grind down magnets some,

15

As far as I know, magnets should not be grinded or in any way machined after they were manufactured. They should be used as they are. Otherwise, they crack further and finally disintegrate.

If too small, magnets can be stacked to achieve required magnetic force and/or dimension (especially in open frame motors).

Hrvoje

16

In my original post, I had the exact motor dimensions, RPM, shaft diameter, voltage, etc in the link. The link led to the exact motor used, which included all the information.

the shaft diameter is 2mm, the dimensions are: 16mm height, 35mm length, 12.7mm wide. It operates at 12v DC, at 17800rpm.

Obviously the length/rpm doesn’t matter, but the proto 2000 0-6-0 being a split frame chassis, will require the motor to be 16 x 12mm in width and height, and have a 2mm shaft. This odd combination is rare, and besides a $44 mabuchi motor, I could not find any other replacements.

After spending 2 hrs searching for motors, it seems nearly all motors with 2mm shaft has a 20mm height, and all motors with 16mm height have 1.5mm shaft.

PS apologies for sounding frustrated, Im just disappointed at the fact that the ONE motor I need, it seems like China just discontinued it.

17

The magnets inside the small motor are curved. This is not a simple open fram motor, where the magnet dimensions don’t really matter. A can motor have curved magnets, just small enough to fit inside the metal shell, but small enough to avoid contact with the armature. Grinding neodym magnets wont work, since those magnets are very soft, inside. The outer coating is crucial to the structural integrity of the magnet. I could try purchasing the non-neodym magnets.

I’ll try that. thanks.

To anyone thats reading this that has a similar issue with their engine, return it right away. It’s not worth the trouble!

Charles

18

You might try 2mm cylinder magnets, they can be stacked both series and parallel.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-Super-Strong-Round-Cylinder-Disc-2-x10mm-Rare-Earth-Neodymium-N35-Magnets/281874478258?epid=1639427383&hash=item41a10734b2:g:D~wAAOSw7FRWYGxI

Good Luck!

Mel

My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

19

Charles,

I know magnets are curved - but such cannot be found. Non-neodym magnets are probably weaker. I suggested 20x3x2 mm because if they can be fittted so that rotor can rotate, then they does not need to be curverd to create magnetic field between them. Maybe even three at each side could be fitted in. Of course, it would be ideal if they are curved, but even if they are positioned one next to each other, they should still give enough force at least for motor to work. Cylindrical magnets that Mel suggested also could work.

If this motor would have enough power, is another matter.

If replacement of magnets fail, then you could use the motor I have suggested above: 12x15,5x19 mm, for example. What we do not know about this motor, is it 5 or 3 pole. It would be much better, especially for DCC, that it has 5 poles. You can ask seller, if he knows this information. It is fast spinning motor, but you can adjust this with CV 5.

The shaft diameter of 1,5 mm is not a problem: you can buy stainless stell capillary tube ID 1,5 mm OD 2,0 mm, 100 mm long, for just 3,20 USD. If ID is exact 1,5 mm, than it is excellent solution. Btw, such tube dimension is very hard to find. Usually you can find ID 1,4 mm OD 2,0 mm.

And finally, I know it is frustrating, but this is very nice locomotive, it runs perfectly (I have the same but it is waiting to get sound decoder, I did not open it yet). I think it is worth the trouble, now when you have it, what to do with it? Wh

20

I have to ask what might be a stupid question. I can’t find any info on your loco. Is there a vertical transmission tower on this locomotive? The reason I ask is it seems to me that the RPM of the motor you listed at 17,800 is way higher for direct drive worm gear to axle gear.

I would think the gear ratio from motor to wheel would be in the range of 50:1 at 17.8K RPM, not doable without some sort of transmission. Worm to axle gear would be in the vicinity of 12:1 to 14:1.

I have several 0-6-0s, 0-8-0s and all have direct drive worm to axle gear.

Something doesn’t sound right to me.

Mel

My Model Railroad &