This thread is a series of questions regarding Southern 2-8-0’s 630 and 722. First, I’d like to know some background information on 630 and 722, and how they came to be sold to the ET&WNC. Also, I’d like some updates on 722’s present status, and if she could be saved. I’d also welcome some opinion on why 722 and “big sister” 4501 spent their excursion years in green paint, though it is obvious now that 4501 will be black when she returns to service. lois
I can’t answer your questions about the others, but 4501 was finished in “Virginia Green” during its excursion career by direction of Graham Claytor, basically as an “ersatz” Southern PS4 passenger locomotive.
Mr. Claytor tried for years to get a Pacific type he could re-do as a PS4, but the closest he got was an Atlanta and West Point Pacific, but the owners insisted it retain A&WP markings.
There is a real PS4 in existance, but it’s in the Smithsonian in Washington, and it’s never coming out.
I am really not trying to be a smart alec, but I Googled Southern 722 and there is a Wikipedia page for it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Railway_722 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Railway_630
While it doesn’t answer all your questions, it does some.
However, there is one mistake in these articles. According to the book, “Steam’s Camelot” 630 was retired from the original Southern excursions in 1978 and 722 in 1980. Jim Wrinn, among others, can confirm this. As to the locomotive in the Smithsonian, it is Ps4 1401 and (as I have read) the building was built around it, the reason why it cannot be brought out. lois
Having been there, it looks almost impossible to bring it out. There are no doors, and it sits in a pit, being taller than the automobiles that surround it on two sides (a tiny window and station replica are the other two). A shame, as she is a beautiful locomotive that is almost obscured by other displays. At least she is covered and in climate controlled rest.
I’ve seen the 1401 at the Smithsonian myself, years ago, and NorthWest is correct, it’s a stunning and absolutely gorgeous locomotive, takes your breath away to see it. No wonder Mr. Secretary Claytor loved it so.
Still, I suppose life “stuffed and mounted” beats no life at all.
The chances of removing 1401 from the Smithsonian are slim & none. The building wasn’t actually built around her, but that’s almost what happened. She was moved over Washington streets and placed inside the open side of the building; then a glass wall was built to close her in. Since then, the Washington Metro subway was built. Any attempt to remove her would involve a move above subway tunnels, and it’s been suggested that the engine’s weight might collapse the tunnels.
She was not restored to her original appearance. Southern replaced her Baker valve gear with Walschaerts’ ,. and the rods were given some sort of bright plating. The running boards were also revised at some point. Except for the plated rods, I actually prefer her this way, although others are welcome to disagree.
Tom
For clarification, A&WP 290 wasn’t used on Southern/NS steam excursions until 1991, and that being because 290 was having work done at the shop at that time. Beforehand, according to “Steam’s Camelot” the excursion arrangements prevented her from being used by Southern/NS. Of course, in early 1991, 611 was out of service, as well as 4501, and 290’s services were sorely needed to assist 1218 for the early excursions that year. 290 did only a few excursions for NS, but soon 4501 and later 611 were ready for the 25th anniversary festivities. lois
I do not know if this is still true or not, but when the 4501 was in the Washington area in the late sixties, the whistle was taken on the Smithsonian engine and put on the 4501–and recordings were made of that whistle as it was blown, and then the recordings were played in the museum. So, the whistle you heard as you were by the engine was her own whistle.
According to what information I have, Southern K class 2-8-0’s were originally delivered with slide valves and Stephenson valve gear. They were later given superheaters, and reclassed in the Ks series, with subclasses Ks-1 and Ks-2 being added. “Universal” or similar types of kits for converting locomotives from slide to piston valves were used. Sometime later, 630 and 722, as well as some of their sisters, would have been fitted with piston valve cylinders and Southern valve gear. How we see 630 today is quite different than from when she was first built. lois
Of course, those modifications do not include those made while the 630 and 722 were in service on the ET&WNC. However, 722 was noted as being in poor condition when she and her sister were traded back to the Southern, and I will leave you to speculate on her situation then. However, that should not reflect on her situation now. I’m sure Bill Purdie and his crew did a professional job rebuilding 722 back then, and her situation now might reflect now more on several years of neglect as well as normal wear and tear. I have little information on this particular subject, so I will leave it up to others who know more about this before saying anything more about it. lois
Yes, the men in the shop in Birmingham, did well in keeping the two running. However, one new brass that was installed on the pony truck did not do well on the first trip afterwards. In May, 1972, the 722 led the 4501 on an excursion to Opelika and back (the 4501 continued on to Columbus, Georgia, with some of the cars and such passengers as Graham Claytor and David P. Morgan).
Before we reached Opelika, the bearing began running hot, so we were late arriving in Opelika and even later returning to Birmingham.
I have a lovely photograph of the engines crossing the Southern just east of Birmingham, on the CG’s trestle. The picture is especially important to me because my then fiancée and I were on board.
Just curious. Would any of you know where to find pix of 630 and 722 when first built, or one of their sisters? lois
However, one of the issues Southern had, in comparison to roads like N&W, was that they never had modern steam locomotives. The bulk of Southern steam was built in the early part of the 20th century, in contrast to N&W, which built steam up into the early 1950’s. As a result, Southern steam locomotives were practically worn out by the end of World War II. I’ll allow you to discuss further the situation on the Southern at that time. lois
I’ve always thought that Southern was in the same general ‘boat’ as PRR with respect to steam – they spent what ‘new passenger locomotive’ money they had on Pacifics and such, just a couple of years before the development of Super-Power, and then had to ride out the Depression with what they had bought and paid for. When ‘new motive power’ time came 'round for them again, it was diesels all the way instead of Hudsons, 4-8-4s or other approaches…
Southern wasn’t the only road without modern steam power after WW2 although it may have well have been the largest in that situation. It appears that SR was also sold on diesels fairly early, considering that they had FT’s in service during WW2.
and e-units for passenger before that
And Alcos–when the Tennessean was inaugurated, Alcos were the power between Bristol and Memphis–and until diesels began being run through between Washington and Memphis/Birmingham/New Orleans, Alcos remained the power (though changed to PA’s) for this train for this end of its run.
The Southerner was always diesel powered south of Washington.
The Tennesean was inaugurated with EMD E-units between Washington and Monroe or Lynchberg, N&W J’s to Bristol, and the one streamlined PS4 between Bristol and Memphis. The Alcos came some time after the inauguration, how long after I do not know. While the Southerner just had one E, the Tennesean, which initially included silver-painted heavyweight Pullmans, had two, and A and a B. Of course a regular PS4 was used whenever the Khuler-streamlined one was not available.
Dave, the streamlined Ps4 had to run between Washington and Monroe–down in the morning and back in the evening. The Southern passenger timetables issued at the time when the Tennessean was new show an Alco A and B on the point of this train. It took two sets of Alcos to maintain the power on the Bristol-Memphis leg–leave Bristol or Memphis in the evening, and be at the other end the next morning. Indeed, the timetables indicated steam power between Washington and Bristol, and diesel power between Bristol and Memphis. The same timetables also show an E on the point of the Southerner.
Monroe was the engine change point since it was the south end of the Washington Division, and N&W engines took the Southern trains between Monroe and Bristol.