I read somewhere that the PRR did not install speedometers in thier steam locomotives. If so, what was the reasoning behind it? Was this common on other railroads? If there was no speedometer I’m assuming the engineer determined his speed with a stopwatch between mileposts, correct?
I also read that PRR maximum freight speed was 60 mph; did locomotives have govenors to keep them below this speed, or was it up to the engineer?
Governors on steam locomotives? Sounds unlikely, doesn’t it?
Offhand I’m guessing steam-powered PRR freights weren’t supposed to do even 60 mph. More likely 50.
There were locations where PRR allowed 60mph on freight, even higher in a few locatons in electrified territory. Chicago - Fort Wayne had stretches of 60 mph frieght operation.
Most steam locomotives did not have speedometers, but engineers would know the speed by the sound which would be different for locomotives with differen driver diameter. A rookey fireman could learn to judge speed by timing mileposts.
At the trolley musuem where I ran cars, there were speed restrictions and one learned to judge speed just by watching the track ahead. It is simply a learned skill. Still no speedometers on any of the cars there.
Thanks Dave, that was helpful.
Omitting them still seems strange to me though; a speedometer seems like a simple and inexpensive addition.
I remember reading somewhere an old engineer telling a rookie fireman that if you can see the siderods going up and down, you’re not going too fast. If they’re just sort of “vibrating” in the middle, you might want to watch for any curves ahead as you’re going very fast and might need to slow down.
Some engines did have speedometers, it just wasn’t required or universal. Some railroads had something that could make a sort of graph of the speed the engine travelled, they would be reviewed after the run to see if the engineer was speeding.
When I hired out on the New York Central in the early 60s many of the old head engineers would STILL time their speed with watch and mile posts even though our diesels HAD speedometers!
I believe that the Norfolk and Western 611 had / has a speedometer.
John Timm
I’m guessing it depends what you mean by “allowed”. Can anyone find a timetable that allows 60 mph steam freight?
I have several Southern TT’s from the thirties–which list the minimum time allowed between stations. Except for the Attlanta Terminal TT, which shows minimum times for passenger trains only, they show the times for freight and passenger trains. The special instructions list reduced speed limits for various sections, but there is no overall speed limit shown for any line in the TT’s.
I also have a copy of Washington Division TT dated October 2, 1927; it does not show minimum times nor does it list maximum speeds allowed except in the instruction concerning reduced speeds. I wonder: were engineers allowed to run as fast ast they wished?
I don’t have a PRR employees timetable, but I would bet than one does show freight speeds of 60mph behind steam. Not at all unusual. The N&W ran coal trains at 70mph behind class A 2-6-6-4’s. The ACL and Seabord ran fruit blocks of regular wood steel-framed refers behind passenger power (Pacifics, usually) at 70mph. The UP and AT&SF 4-8-4’s were designed specifically for such high-speed freight service.
The CPR Historical Association website has ETT’s from various times throughout the 20th Century, and it is interesting to look at the evolution of how speed limits were listed.
In the Special Instructions in the back of each book there were maximum speeds listed for each class of engine, G, P, T, etc. Then with each subdivision listing there were Permanent Slow Orders written as "no train permitted between Mile xx.x and Mile yy.y in less than a minutes and b seconds.
At the end of the steam era the listing by class designation changed to maximum MPH for each subdivision. Permanent Slow Orders changed to MPH as well, but it was not an across the board thing. In the same ETT you would see slow orders listed in both the not less than a minutes and b seconds, and MPH. It seems that straight MPH wasn’t used until the early sixties.
It is my understanding that no CPR steam engines had speedometers.
Bruce
Yes that is interesting, and makes sense…A term like “miles per hour” would not have been in the general vocabulary of people in the early 1900’s.
Can anyone find a timetable for any railroad that allows steam freight to run at 70 mph? Here and there some RRs may have allowed their hottest steam freights to run 60-- but not PRR, I’m guessing. I checked a bunch of NY/Pittsburgh/Eastern Divs TTs and found nothing over 50.
Of course, as everyone knows steam freights all over the country were actually running 120 mph, at the very least-- but speed limits in the timetables were lower.
You are probably correct about PRR steam in the east, but again, check Fort Wayne - Valapriso - Chicago. Remember that this is also the location where the E6-hauled PRR - Wabash Detroit Arrow regularly exceeded 100mph, as detailed in the Kalmb ach Apex of the Atlantics.
The 1939 Fort Wayne Div TT shows 50 mph for freight, but I don’t have one newer than that-- looks like nobody else does either?
I know many of the NYC locos did have a “Valve Pilot”, IIRC this would govern the top speed of the loco by applying the engine brakes, at which time the crew would have to manually release the brakes after stopping the engine. I believe this also indicated speed and recorded the speed. You can bet that there would be sever reprecutions to any engineer who caused a train the likes of the 20th Century Limited to make an unscheduled stop out on the mainline. I am no steam expert, but perhaps some of the many old hats here can shed more light on the Valve Pilot system. I have seen several NYC vidoes and at least most of the passanger engines I saw had speedometers. The Valve Pilot itself is recognizable on the side of the locomotive if you know what to look for. It is kind of a round device with (lets say) wings on each side on the horizontal. Perhaps someone could provide pix of such. My dad told me as a conductor on the C&O he figured the speed by counting telephone poles over some period of time and that told him the speed. He worked on coal drags usually between Walbridge Ohio and the Coal docks, so usually they were going 5mph and blocking traffic on the surface streets.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River (fictional) Railroad
Does your FortWayne TT say anythinhg about 10 mph above normal for special reasons?
Also, during WWII, occasonally double-headed K4’s and single M-1’s hauled frieght UNDER wire in the East. The were allowed the same speeds on these freight trains as GG-1’s with frieght.
Not as I recall. What reasons?
Probably true-- 50 mph for both. 60 mph timetable freight limits on PRR started in the … mid 1950s?.
The engineers use to count telegraph poles. The poles were placed at a very closely measured interval. An experienced engineer could also tell by the sound as they passed the poles.
Some roads, such as the UP, had forty poles to the mile, with every ten poles numbered. Now the UP has 1/4 miles posts between the numbered mileposts.
And, some roads had no numbers on the poles, and may even have had varying numbers of poles betweenmileposts.