A question I have had for years: say we got a 100 car train in winding territory such as raton or tehachapi. How does the rear engineer know when to start, stop, slow down, brake. Of course with diesel; no prob as we now have distributed power run by radio or other technology. But what about the old days with steam? Seems to me the rear hogger had to be good or else could over push and derail or not push when needed and split the consist. How did the hoggers communicate with each other. Whisle signals could not work because of obstructions and distance. Appreciate any light on this one. Thanx
The pusher engineer, like the one on the head end, had to know the road.
The initial starts were made by whistle signal, but after that it might be impossible to hear a whistle from the other end of the train.
On N&W’s Clinch Valley District, eastbounds were pushed all the way from Finney to Bluefield Yard, a distance of something like 62 miles, some of it downhill, some of it over hogbacks. Experience had taught the pusher guys what to do, and they did it. Of course they kept one eye on the brake pipe gauge, especially approaching areas where an unexpected stop might have to be made.
On the Pocahontas Division Main Line, pushers operated from Farm 34 miles into Bluefield Yard; the summit was west of Cooper Tunnel, but the pusher stayed on to get the train into the yard.
Again, they knew where and how hard to push, and where to shut off.
Like the guy says, “ya gotta know the territory . . .”
Old Timer
Old Timer:
I heard someone mention once steam pushers being cut off “on the fly” at the top of a grade. I wonder if that is true? Did you every witness it?
Thank you.
There is a series of photos done by O. Winston Link showing this very operation in his book “The Last Steam Trains in America”. The trainman is standing on the rear platform of his caboose, pulls the pin to the coupler using a chain, and the Y3 articulated locomotive drifts back into the background. What was not said in the book- and what I have heard (rumor?) was that this particular train (a coal train) became a runaway.
Erik
The N&W pusher sequence you described involves a Y6, and was also recorded on Link’s album, Thunder on Blue Ridge. The train did not run away. It broke in two (knuckle??) and stopped part way down the grade on the east side of Blue Ridge. A helper was called, probably the same Y6, coupled up to the rear half of the train and eased it down several car lengths to the head end. Again, all this is on the recording and described by N&W’s Walter Jackson. What you heard is a rumor, ill-founded and erroneous, like most of them. Be careful what you believe.
Appreciate your response “Old Timer” Very helpful to my clouded mind. Thankx
Desert Phantom
…The B&O branch of the S&C in Pennsylvania…{now CSX}, was a coal hauler from near Johnstown, Pa. up through Kantner, Listie, Somerset and so on to Rockwood. This route up to near Somerset was steep {believe one location was 3%}, in places and many degrees of curves. The branch went up the valley a bit over a mile away from my home but one could see the steam and smoke from each bank of engines on the coal drag. One could hear them signaling to each other with whistles for quite a way up the route. Many times a Mallet would be heading the coal drag with two steamers pushing. The back two had to communcate somehow too, to keep their efforts together. The grades {and curves}, were steep and sharp so I imagine much power was needed just to keep the train moving along this route until reaching the summit near Geiger, Pa.
There was one other factor though…On the climb up the route they had to make a stop and break the train and one engine would move back into the sub branch back into a mine to drag the days coal output back out and insert it into the train. Then all would have to work together to get the power working together and get the train started on the uphill climb again. Whistles could be heard as they tried to start moving again. This would happen several times to bring out loads from each mine until the consist was as much as could be handled with their power…This activity was ongoing as there were quite a few mines on this route and required several trains each day to drag coal out and on the way to market.
First, there were not likely to be many 100 car trains in helper districts in steam days. If there were a train that long likely had a set of helpers cut into the train and perhaps one on the head end ahead of the road power as well as one ahead of or behind the caboose and perhaps both sides of the caboose. So the whistle signals did not have to be heard the full mile of train length. Yes, all the engineers were familiar with the road, normal operations and the train orders in effect for the trip. Engineers on trailing units would also closely watch their air gauges to see if the lead engineer was setting some air to slow down or stop or releasing the air to move or speed up. It was just another day’s work for these guys. Each railroad and each division was likely to have it’s own protocols worked out over the years to make things work best for the crews.
Early dieses did not have radio-control. Therefore, it was not much easier to bring a train over the hill with diesel helpers
I never witnessed it in person, but I’ve been around several places where it happened after the train got by me and my camera (I never thought the top of the hill was as fun a place to see the train as on the mountain, or at its foot where I could watch the train start after the pusher was added). It happened on the N&W at Honaker, Va. (Finney Hill; one pusher behind the caboose cut off and went back for a second train, a pusher ahead of the caboose went all the way to Bluefield); Christiansburg, Va. (Alleghany Mountain); and, of course, Blue Ridge, Va. (Blue Ridge Mountain). These were just the places I’ve seen; there were many other instances of cutting off on the fly.
There were states, though, that said you couldn’t push against an occupied caboose with more than a given amount of horsepower (a fallacious restriction; at the speeds involved, tractive effort would have been more of a factor); Pennsylvania was a noted example of that.
Old Timer
…Just witnessed a coal drag passing through Johnstown, Pa. this past Sunday a week ago east bound and it was supported by 3 pusher engines…Just seemed a little unusual to have that many pushing up the west side but it might be done more than I was aware of. I suppose they would be needed to “brake” down the steeper east side down into Altoona.
erikthered -
Let me just put a little emphasis on what Feltonhill told you about rumors.
Of all the coal trains that N&W took DOWN Elkhorn, Bluefield, Home Creek, Alleghany and Blue Ridge mountains (to name the steepest ones), in all the history of the railway, there was never a runaway train.
Standard trains in late steam days for eastbounds going down Bluefield and Alleghany Mountains was 110-130 cars. Standard trains going down Blue Ridge (the ones with the Y-6 and A on the head end, with the Y-6 pusher up the mountain) were 150 cars.
The east end of Bluefield Yard was/is on a descending 1.7% grade eastbound, and while there was never a runaway train there, there have been instances of cuts of coal cars getting away from the yard and running down the hill. They never got farther than the “Jug Neck”, the 25 MPH reverse curve a couple of miles below Ada.
Louis Newton, author of the RAILS REMEMBERED volumes, said that eastbound trains didn’t leave Bluefield Yard. He said they fell out of it.
Old Timer
Thanks for the corrections, guys.
Erik
One of the techniques used to start a train was called “holding on sand.” The lead engine would start the train and pull all the slack it could. Then the engineer would lay down some sand and open the throttle to where the engine would just start to slip. The sand would prevent the slip, and the hogger would whistle signal the pusher to open 'er up. The rear hogger would just open the throttle and shove for all he had. As the rear engine took on the load, the lead engine would unload and just walk away with the train, adding throttle as much as possible to accelerate. Pennsy used to do that moving ore trains eastward out of Erie, using I1s.
“Of all the coal trains that N&W took DOWN Elkhorn, Bluefield, Home Creek, Alleghany and Blue Ridge mountains (to name the steepest ones), in all the history of the railway, there was never a runaway train.”
I have to take that back. Train 85 ran away down Elkhorn in 1937 and derailed on the bridge at Maybuery; engine 2092 took a dive off the bridge and exploded when it hit bottom. Speculation had it that a hobo had turned an anglecock near the engine, after the engine started downhill, and emergency braking was not available.
Sorry 'bout that . . .
Old Timer
In addition to whistle signals, the lead engineer could “play” with the air brakes to signal the helpers since whistles weren’t always audible to the helper’s engineer.
A topic like this and the threads added, certainly gives the readers a whole new appreciation for the skills needed to get trains over the line in days when there were no modern communications. and only an air pressure gauge to read, not to mention the personal dangers faced while doing that job.
Not only did you “have to know the territory”. you had to know your fellow workers and be able to know what they were going to do in a given set of circumstances. Amazing!
Sam