why is it that the us does not hold the steam speed record? the british did it in the 30’s, and nothing in operation now can beat it?
im thinkin 4449 or 844…
As discussed before in other threads… we did not really set out to get a “Official Record” although one or two probably is considered.
Usually here in America late at night on a well maintained stretch somewhere a engineer might have shared a wink and a smile with the fireman and reached to open up the Johnston Bar without any company sanction towards the really high speed they are about to achieve.
I would imagine some steamers might have reached 120+ if not 130+ but woe to the crew that allows this to come out into the company.
In the other thread we discussed this in, it is generally agreed that the Milwalkee Railroad’ws Hiathwatha (Spelling?) holds the speed record for a regular scheduled service.
The PRR had some locomotives such as the T-1 Duplex or the Turbine that apparently had the ability and the horses to run flat out but no place to really get up and run. Other railroads probably had “pet” steamers that had the ability to crack 110+ on demand.
But the British and Europeans have the advantage. They support high speed much more than the USA does.
We probably can build and design a steam engine capable of breaking 150 mph but no one will insure it or allow such a teapot to run.
The Germans argue that they should hold the steam speed record as one of their streamlined 4-6-2’s did 124mph on a leve line whereas ‘Mallard’'s 126mph was on a downgrade.
Incidentally Britain holds the post WW2 record as a sister loco to ‘Mallard’, ‘Sir Nigel Gresley’ achieved 119mph on a run in the 1950’s.
Whilst I’ve no doubt there are locos in the US which could match these feats, I doubt if the track conditions, except on the line where the Acelas run, would be up to it. That’s why European countries hold all the speed records - they’ve got the high speed lines.
A French TGV has done 312mph and as long ago as 1955 one of their electric locos ran at 200mph! For a long time the British prototye High Speed Diesel Train held the record for a diesel train at 143mph but that has now been betered by a Spanish diesel train.
Still the US may have supremacy with Gas Turbine traction as the new Gas Turbine loco that Bombardier have built has run at 165mph.
im sure there is an steam hogger somewhere in America who unofficially holds that record.Remember the story in trains about the pennsy T-1 in Ohio?If I remember correct it was in the transition era and the crew got an ol steamer instead of a diesel one night.So the engineer decides to see what the old girl has left in her and gives the fireman the ride of his life.The story was being told by the fireman.I cannot remember the firemans name he wrote other stories and articals for trains.
Or the famous Western run between the west coast and Chicago? Apparently one part of the trip involved everyone on the floor hanging on to everything and anything solid as the train ripped thru the arizona night.
Engineers with ice nerves and no consideration for the bodily fear and emotions in times of such speed probably can pu***he steam engine to speeds that are way fast.
There are many stores floating around the steam railroad books… maybe a paragraph here or a chapter there that tell of speeds attained on one or two occasions. I say that we probably have broken the British Speed Record good and smashed once or twice.
I find it interesting that steam speed may have been regulated by the ability of the boiler to physically contain the weight of the water that has to be moving at those high speeds. It can only boil water so fast.
There’s all sorts of stories floating around here too about undocumented high speed exploits. Before ‘City of Truro’‘s run in 1904 which is widely though to be the first 100mph run from a steam loco, there were other claims both in the US and Britain. The Lancashire and Yorkshire had a class of 4-4-2’s with 7’ 6" driving wheels (the GWR City Class had 6’ 8" drivers) and its claimed that one of these once achieved a speed of 105 between Liverpool and Manchester in about 1902. Alas we’ll never know.
Many thing the LMS Coronation Pacifics (one of which toured the US in 1939 and had to stay until 1941due to the outbreak of WW2) were capable of 130mph. On its very first run, #6220 ‘Coronation’ achieved a then world record of 114mph. Only trouble was they had to slam on the brakes as they were approaching Crewe. It was only the improved suspension of the carriages that kept them on the track that day - the line at that point was subject to a 20mph limit and they sailed thru at 60+mph - with crockery flying everywhere in the dining car! After the run, the driver commented “She aint run in yet, when she I reckon I can beat that German diesel train” ( a reference to the German ‘Flying Hamburger’ diesel rail car which had run at 124mph a few years before. The LNER had actually considered buying a set before deciding instead to build a streamlined steam loco, the first in Britain). Alas the outbreak of WW2 prevented any chance of breaking this or ‘Mallards’ record,but the tests which British Rail carried out in the summer of 1948 showed that the Coronation class generated more horsepower at the drawbar than the Gresely streamliners.
Tulyar15:
The gas turbine record is held by French with TGV prototypes.
The diesel record is afair in the hands of the Russians (TEP-70 at about 170 mph)
The avg speed overall is held by the TGV with 1000 km in about 3+ hrs (avg in provimity of 180 mph)
Fastest service is japanese Shinkansen with scheduled speed of 164 mph (Kokura-Nagano afair).
Altho - this shows one important thing - US railroads were (and are) about regular, mundane and efficient service - not about record breaking.
The USA doesn’t hold the biggest trains either, Australia does.
How ‘tall’ is the flange on a typical railroad wheel? and by that I mean how far up would one side of a train have to “rock” before the flange on the wheels cleared the top of the rail?
I wasn’t aware of the Russian diesel record. I hate to contradict you, but the Japanese Shinkansen is not the highest scheduled speed. The Eurostars reach their top speed of 185mph on both sides of the English channel now that the first stage of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link has opened. (in the Chunnel itself they’re limited to 100mph maximum) The Spanish AV E trains also do 185mph; in fact I think they may do 200mph. The French are planning a3rd generation TGV which will operate at 225-250 mph.
I agree with your last point about regular. When the French ran their electroc loco at 200mph back in 1955 it burnt out shortly afterwards and did a considerable amount of damage to both track and catenary. British Rail when they had a world class R & D division were always much more cautious with their testing.
Tulyar15:
The Shinkansen record is the fastest average scheduled speed 
I forgot to add the average ^^
No kidding![:-^]
I had read somewhere that European historians had calculated the amount of power that NYC 999 could have attained. They said her cylinders weren’t big enough to power a train at over 100 mph. I still don’t believe it. Does anybody else have information on this?
James[C):-)]
The Germans did some research on high-speed steam-engines in the thirties, before Hitler started the war. They had an interest in hauling fast trains with steamers, because Germany has very little oil-ressources.
The conclusion in short: you cannot go very much above 125 mph with a Stephenson-type steam-engine. What’s limiting top-speed is movement of the pistons. You cannot go very much above 7 feet drivers because the damage to the rail would be unbearable. Hence, you have to choose other designs, for example steam-turbines.
Of course, during the war high-speed-steam-trains had no priority whatsoever. It was much more important to design easy to maintain, solid and cheap workhorses linke the different WD-classes.
G’day, Y’all,
The alleged speed record for a 1/8 scale steam locomotive is over 60 mph, which gives about 480 mph scale speed. Talk about ice cold nerves! Now the weight on rails and the attendant damage do not compare to 12 inches to the foot railroading, but the demands upon the Stephenson valve gear would be the same. The designers of the latest Formula 1 racing engines would be impressed with the speed.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A
martin.knoepfel -
Enlighten me. What is it about higher-than-84" drivers that would be hard on track at high speed?
I always thought that the bigger the drive wheel, the fewer RPM were necessary to attain high speeds, and the more room was available for counterbalance.
Old Timer
Yes, some engineer probably pulled out the throttle on his [insert favorite American railroad’s 4-8-4 here], saying, “Let’s see what she can really do.” But, at the same time, someone in Canada probably said, “Let’s see what she can really do, eh?” (sorry Kevin). And in Britain, someone on something probably said, “Let’s see what she can do, old chap.” And in Germany, somebody said, “Zet’s see vhat zhe can do, ya?” And in Russia, somebody said, “Zhet’s see vhat zsjee can do, da?”
My point is that probably all countries with developed steam locomotion did, at some point, break 126.4 (including Britain itself), or at least could have. Mallard does have the official, indisputable record, and really, that’s what counts.
If you wanted to, you could build a steamer expressly for speed (get the pun???). You could give it 17x20 cylinders, with a boiler pressure of 600 lbs, with 8’ 6" drivers, roller bearings, and make the whole thing out of titanium. It would cost a fortune, and it probably wouldn’t be good for much else except setting records, but you could probably get it up to at least 150 mph.
The one which I think we have overlooked is the AT&SF 3460 class Hudsons. With 79" drivers, the 3450’s easily did 100, so imagine what a 3460, with roller bearings, 84" drivers, and 300 psi. could do. If the ever restore 3463, they should take it to the Northeast Corridor and see what it is capable of.
Sincerely,
Daniel Parks
The Brits usually quibble about how American speed records were measured, including the famous run of 999. There was a lot of approximation going on for many American speed runs and the English like things to be precise.
It is said there was not the engineer alive who had the nerve to pull the throttle all the way back on the Milwaukee Road Class A 4-4-2s.
I believe it was the chief mechanical engineer for the Pennsylvania RR who opined that when it came to speed, the fewer and larger the drivers the better. So a 4-8-4 might not be the best candidate for a speed record. When the Pennsy wanted speed for the famous Lindberg train they chose an E-6 rather than a K-4 for just that reason, even though they had the same size drivers.
Dave Nelson
…It sure doesn’t sound like the speed record is “indisputable” the amount of opinions we’ve had in posts on this subject…
The Lindbergh Special used an E6s since that was standard power on that part of the system. The E6s could be described as a “super Atlantic” with capabilities comparable to a Pacific in territory with favorable grades where low-speed tractive effort would be less of a factor.
You would still have dynamic augment problems with very tall drivers since the main rod would have to be quite long. The side rods would also be long but counterbalancing side rods is relatively simple since they are rotating masses. The main rod involves a combination of reciprocating and rotating masses and counterbalancing and cross-counterbalancing of the main rod has always been as much art as science.
On the other hand, more drivers might be better at hight speeds–gyroscopic stability.