You can easily tell the railfans and non operating people from the people who actually have experience in the field working in T&E service.
You see handbrakes being dragged all the time, just spend a little time in the yard or on a local/industry job and it won’t take long.
Its easy for someone whose never done the job to be so strongly against moving cars with handbrakes applied.
Sorry I don’t have your pedigree.
Why WOULD a non-railroader have knowledge of certain practices? I’m sure you lack knowledge of other people’s occupations. So what?
Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That’s all.
Its just so funny to me how people with no railroad experience (real railroading not some volunteer tourist train or museum deal) act so shocked about rules violations. News flash sometimes you have to break rules, it’s simply a matter of first knowing that you are breaking a rule, choosing which rule to break, how to break it as safely as possible, and hoping you don’t get caught. If we didn’t break rules from time to time trains wouldn’t move. The big railroads even have a term for it : malicious rules compliance. The railroad doesn’t like people who do that.
Of course I don’t have knowledge of every field or
Many understanding is that hand-brakes are not an all-or-nothing device, that one can wind them up to maximum effect or just apply enough force to stop a tendency to roll on a moderate grade or level track. Am I correct?
So a conductor or other trainman would judge the specific situation and apply just what was essential for a safety margine, usually not enough to cause sliding.
We run 85 ton passenger cars and 100 ton first and second generation locomotives. We deal with flat wheels, and the same rules the “big boys” do, on over 50 miles of track at speeds up to 45 MPH. My certificate is issued under 49CFR240, just like the real railroaders. I may not have experience running 14,000 foot trains, but it’s still real railroading.
Leaving handbrakes set during switching is usually in a case of a car being moved in a switching scenario where it will be moved a short distance and then spotted again nearby. In that case, it is tempting to save the work of releasing brake and then having to turn right around a few minutes later and set it again. Otherwise, for switching, there is typically no reason to handle the cars with handbrakes set, and it would interfere with the work.
Also, it is common for whole trains to leave a yard with a handbrake set that should have been released. This can result in wheels either sliding or under heavy braking when the train has reached maybe 40-50 mph. If it is deep in the train, it might not be seen by the crew. But they are easier to see at night because of the fireworks that they can produce.
Working yard jobs it’s fairly routine to shove or drag cars with hand brakes set when setting up your kicking post at the far end of the track or when you’re pulling a cut out of a track that’s tied at the other end. If the yard is one a grade my railroad usually requires the brakes to be tied at the other end so you would have to go all the way down to the other end of the cut every time you needed to move cars around to untie brakes just to tie them again. Heck for a while we weren’t even allowed to ride the sides of cars in yards, got to love class 1 rring.
and yes handbrakes can be tied however tightly is needed but in most cases you should be tieing them tightly otherwise what’s the point?
Larry, I have huge respect for what you do. And you’ve taught me a lot on this board.
Unfortunately, there are always people who have the need to assert some kind of pecking order, an order in which in their eyes (surprise, surprise) they are at the top.
Trains is a railfan magazine. People of all levels of RR knowledge should be able to come here and ask questions without being talked down to or insulted.
Count me among the non-railroaders who are surprised that it seems to be common practice to drag cars around with the handbrakes set. It shouldn’t surprise you that we’re surprised, since by definition we don’t know the business and haven’t been in your shoes. Perhaps it makes you feel better about yourself to assume an air of superiority…
Handbrakes are not all or nothing in the mechanical terms of application. But, they are all or nothing in terms of what is considered fully applied. So if a handbrake is required to be set, it is set fully without regard to what is actually needed to hold the car from moving. They only question is, what is meant by fully set?
Setting them initially finds the shoes hanging clear of the wheels, so the brake wheel turns freely with very little resistance, and so several wheel revolutions can be made without changing your hand position on the wheel.
When the shoes contact the wheels, the wheel winding action begins to gain resistance, you begin tugging on the wheel rotation about 1/3 rotation at a time, and the locking dog holds the wheel position each time you reposition your hand. Then each “stroke” of the wheel has the feel of taking more effort as though it were tightening a spring like when winding a clock. I have been told that the resiliency or feeling of tightening a spring does not come from an actual spring, such as an extension spring in the handbrake rod linkage. I understand that the spring action feel results from the elasticity of all of the brake linkage between the brake wheel and the shoes p
I think part of it is that we frequently see reports of draconian rules enforcement by the railroads, some engineer gets an unscheduled vacation for running around the leg of a wye just 50 feet into territory he is not qualified for, and even though he was ordered to do so by a superior, he is the one to get the vacation. Or a crew dies on hours while blocking a busy intersection, and even though the relief crew is at least an hour away, there they sit for the duration.
It gives us unwashed outsiders the impression that rules within railroads are sacrosanct…so when we hear about exceptions, it tends to get our interest.
We do frequently receive reports of draconian rules enforcement by the railroads. But, we also have to realize that there are two sides to the extraordinarily polarized relationship between railroad labor and management.
I’ll be honest and admit that I had not considered that possibility, certainly sounds interesting, but it does raise additional questions. I thought it was a definite no-no to be standing inside guage so near an unsecured train? Connecting that airhose is gonna put a man in harms way.
Plus, once he accomplishes that, where is he gonna ride while the train is playing “bumpercars” during the shove?
I’d post a picture of the Tulip Trestle for reference, but I do not own the rights to any such picture and I don’t want the teacher to have a fit and give me a detention over I.P. sensitivities. [A]
No walkway on the Tulip Trestle. Which brings me back to my original concern with the suggestion I received earlier from others.
Before such a train can be moved, doesn’t the move require “boots on the ground” protection in the rear?
And, perhaps I’m going into excess, but I thought someone once mentioned here that after a train had gone into emergency, the entire train HAD to be walked for visual inspection before it could be moved? Clearly that’s not gonna happen on the Tulip Trestle, but I do believe that was a REQUIREMENT that we unwashed masses were once schooled over, on previous occasion?
Anyway, getting that train off the trestle appears to require acts that we have been told are not supposed to happen?
Train can be pulled by if the duck can’t inspect it all. But the engineer has to have dispatcher approval, be able to see air being recovered on the rear, and has no difficulty getting train moving. You can back up a train 1 train length with dispatcher approval as long as there aren’t any intervening signals, road crossings, etc. If the duck can’t get to a seperation on a bridge, call for help, take a nap.
Handbrakes are not all or nothing in the mechanical terms of application. But, they are all or nothing in terms of what is considered fully applied. So if a handbrake is required to be set, it is set fully without regard to what is actually needed to hold the car from moving. They only question is, what is meant by fully set?
Setting them initially finds the shoes hanging clear of the wheels, so the brake wheel turns freely with very little resistance, and so several wheel revolutions can be made without changing your hand position on the wheel.
When the shoes contact the wheels, the wheel winding action begins to gain resistance, you begin tugging on the wheel rotation about 1/3 rotation at a time, and the locking dog holds the wheel position each time you reposition your hand. Then each “stroke” of the wheel has the feel of taking more effort as though it were tightening a spring like when winding a clock. I have been told that the resiliency or feeling of tightening a spring does not come from an actual spring, such as an extension spring in the handbrake rod linkage. I understand that the spring action feel results from the elasticity of all of the brake linkage between the brake wheel and the shoes pressing against the wheels.
As the wheel is wound against this elasticity, the shoe/wheel contact gets more forceful. Generally, a handbrakes is applied to the tightness extent that it is considered
Thanks LO,…I just didn’t want to risk getting a possible bad grade. I hope to graduate this semester!! [:-,]
Here is a view of tulip trestle that shows the constrained work area. Not sure how you could walk around a stranded section to provide protection in the rear.
I guess I’m viewing the landscape a little differently than you. I’m not a railroader. I’m a lumber guy. I’m certainly not against moving cars with handbrakes applied- because I don;t know enough about them. My first impression was “Really? That’s physically possible to do that”? I do appreciate the railroad folks on here that explain things for us non-railroaders.
When it comes to ‘shut down’ situations that cannot be remedied within the rules - the ‘officials’ will undertake whatever actions are necessary to move the ‘shut down’ from where it is blocking the line.
