Did the City of New Orleans, Panama limited or any other NOL bound train go through St.Louis? Why dosent todays City go through St. louis. It would provide more ridership by going through a major city.
Short answer: No. The ICG’s main line went via Cairo IL, and then Memphis, TN & Paducah KY. The IC had a line that went from CHI to St. Louis, but then to get further south the IC had only secondary tracks between St. Louis and southern IL.
Actually, I believe the IC had connecting service between St Louis and Carbondale for both the City and Panama. I don’t recall for sure but there may have been a through Pullman car for St Louis-New Orleans. As for a St Louis New Orleans train, if it ever existed, it would have predated WW II.
The IC did run a bus connection between St. Louis and Carbondale, IL, for both the City of New Orleans and the Panama Limited. A routing via St. Louis would have added extra hours to the schedule and also taken away service from a lot of Illinois passengers.
I am pretty sure the IC ran the service via rail until the transfer to Amtrak. Vandalia Bus Company now provides the connecting thru-way service between Carbondale and St Louis (per the Amtrak timetable). The 84 mile run has two hours on the schedule. I could be wrong, but I believe the northbound connection is guaranteed. That means it will not leave Carbondale until the northbound City arrives, even if late.
Up until the late-50’s, the IC had three daily passenger runs each way between St Louis and Carbondale, making connections with through streamliners from Chicago, south. The St Louis trains carried through sleepers for New Orleans, Memphis, and Miami. For a time, into the 1950’s, there was a distinct St Louis-Memphis train called the “Chickasaw”. As elsewhere, train frequency was gradually reduced during the 1960’s. As I recall, Amtrak ran a Kansas City-St Louis-Carbondale train for short time, called, I think, the “River Cities”. It served as a connection to the City of New Orleans.
Two Track Main
However, if our country ever decided to build high speed rail, with a line from Chicago to New Orleans, this high speed rail line would go to St. Louis and Memphis along the way… adding probably an hour or two to the route going the long way, but connecting the larger cities would be a priority…
In the past the railroads did not build the tracks to achieve the highest density… they built them to haul freight… Take a long look at the state of Oklahoma, for example… Frisco built tracks between Tulsa and Oklahoma City, all the way to Quannah Texas thru Lawton… Katy built its tracks thru eastern Oklahoma along US 69 to get to Dallas and its Texas base, and to St. Louis thru Jefferson City, not Springfield… At one time the Katy and Frisco ran the Texas Special passenger train along Katys short cut thru Oklahoma and along Frisco’s short cut in Missouri…The MoPac built its main line to Austin, San Antonio, and Laredo thru east Texas, with a branch to Houston… to reach Dallas the MoPac passenger trains had to use the T&P tracks west of Marshall…the route Amtrak takes today…
When one looks at the Dallas railroads today, Dallas is served by Union Pacific well, but the Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad serves Fort Worth, not Dallas well…
The bus service is listed in the April 1971 Official Guide (the last one prior to Amtrak.)
Perhaps someone can tell us when it switched from rail.
the st louis rail connection at carbondale illinois for the city of new orleans, the seminole, the city of miami, the panama limited was discontinued in 1968, then after that the ic discontinued the seminole south of carbondale and renamed it the shawnee
seminole:
You sure resurrected this thread from the archives. Welcome aboard.
ed
I received as as Christmas gift the IC psgr history book by Four Way West. Very interesting reading on what has been covered in this post. As for Amtrak, back in the 1980’s, there was a New Orleans coach and slpr car that operated on the Mules out of KC to Centralia which were switched there to/from 58&59. If anyone can tell us when this was dropped, I’d like to know. Perhaps around 1987 or so? After the cars were dropped is when the bus connection began out of STL.It is a forgotten part of Amtrak past that in the 1980’s one could ride direct KC-New Orleans.
IIRC the IC did indeed discontinue serving St. Louis - Carbondale by rail in 1968. But the IC kept the tradition as long as it could, I guess. My March, 1967 Official Guide of the Railways shows the consist of the overnight train, the PANAMA LIMITED, with sleepers not only New Orleans to Chicago, but N.O. to St. Louis AND a set-out sleeper from Jackson, Mississippi to N.O., also a club car, twin-unit diner and Parlor Cars(!) over three different segments: Chgo to Carbondale, Chicago to North Cairo, and Memphis to N.O. (all this is on p. 390). NB Panama Limited was sched. to be in Memphis at 11:15 p.m., SB at 1:20 a.m. Coach went to St. Louis from Carbondale as well as sleeper. (p. 392)
My question is, are these parlor cars really parlor cars a la PRR and if so, did people sleep in them? It was an overnight train, after all.
The day train, the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, also according to the Guide, carried coaches, “dining service” and a club-lounge-observation car from Chgo to N.O. and back. No mention is made of St. Louis. Railroad IC (oops!) intercity passenger miles were plummeting, and I would hazard a guess that the opening of Interstate-57 into Cook County and running south toward Cairo was the “coup de grace” for most Illinois service. For the first time it was just as fast to drive from Chicago to Rantoul or Effingham and maybe even Carbondale, and with your own car nobody had to pick you up at the station. Interstate motorists no longer needed to make that big bow to the west thru St. Louis.
Somewhere recently I saw a photo of the PANAMA LIMITED in 1968 and basically I had one of everything: engine (or engines), baggage car, coach, diner, sleeper, was about all I saw --maybe another coach or the club car. No stub from St. Louis on down to Carbondale enroute to N.O., just bus as other people have said. </
Amtrak’s River Cities ran from April 29, 1984 until Novenber 4, 1993.
Here is a timetable for 358/359-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=43373
Going through St. Louis would be a considerable detour and add about five hours to the trip. Any good map will show this.
At one time all major Chicago - New Orleans Illinois Central passsenger trains had a St. Louis connection. In the case of the Panama Limited, through sleepers were operated. For coach passengers on the City of New Orleans, one changed trains in Cairo? Illinois.
The City of Miami had through sleepers and coaches to St. Louis.
While not the size of St. Louis, Memphis isn’t exactly a country crossroads.