Hi all, saw a very timely discussion for me about the Bachmann EZ DCC system (thanks Grayson) because I’m just about to run up the same inevitable question…to DCC or not DCC.
I’m just at the stage of wiring my layout and thinking about it more extensively. It’s a bigger layout than I ever had before…10x12x8, essentially, a level and a half. And all the DC wiring on a layout this size seems a headache…3 reversing sections, at least two cabs, plenty of spurs with all the Atlas Twins, Controllers, Connectors and Selectors, plus about 10 wire feeds. Trying to figure out how to wire it up so that I can operate two trains on two cabs in relatively close proximity, like passing sidings.
I think I might just be better off with DCC…to go ahead and take the plunge to a new level. I’ve been avoiding it because it all seems complicated and dense, and when it comes to electrical networks I like to keep it simple because I’m not a techy person. But thinking about operating my new layout, I do now see the point of running the trains, not the layout. And it’s such a cool and exciting layout I’m planning, I’m very psyched about it, seems a waste to run around the DCC issue forever.
So I’m also asking for some guidance, based upon my particular circumstances:
the layout size is as large as it will ever get without me moving, which isn’t likely.
I’m planning for operations…servings mills and mines and such…pretty basic operations, but operational layout nonetheless.
I would like to run two trains simulataneously, maybe three, but anticipate never running more than that. It’s a personal layout for me and my son, probably one operator at a time.
My son is 8, and I don’t want something that he can’t figure out. Or something that I can’t figure out but that he can figure out. [:-^]
I’m no expert, but here are my responses/opinions:
Your wiring will have to be as complicated, or as simple, as is necessary to operate what your trackplan provides. Your reversing loops will need gapping no matter which way you go, and you’ll need a DPDT or an auto-reverser no matter which way you go.
Power is relative. As you draw more of it by wanting more “work” done by more locos and stationary devices, you’ll need more power. If you really are committed to staying with at most three locos, then the EZ-Command will do it for you since you also want to eschew sound. About the time you get to four locos, though, you have no reserve…period.
Unless I am seriously misinformed, you can forget lashups with something as basic as the EZ-Command. You must manipulate at least three seperate CVs in your decoders on each locomotive, and the EZ-Command doesn’t allow for that capability.
Different locos need different consideration to make them DCC capable. Even with one manufacturer, different runs of the same locomotive have different needs. I can’t speak to the ones you list, but many here can, and I’m sure that the term “DCC ready” is not universally meaningful across the hobby…unfortunately.
When I started building my layout, I had the idea that I would run part DC and part DCC, because I had a number of really old engines and a couple of really new ones. As it turned out, the old engines were generally not worth trying to restore to running shape.
One day, I went out and bought the DCC system. I installed a decoder in one engine, and hooked it up. Within a half-hour, I was a 12-year-old kid again, having a blast with trains. I took the old DC power pack off the layout and put it on the floor under the layout. I knew that DCC really was the future, for the whole layout.
For a starter set, I’d get the Digitrax Zephyr. It has most of the capabilities of a much larger system, and it’s expandable. It probably has enough power for your layout all by itself, particularly if you’re not running sound engines. (Personally, I’m hooked on sound, which I didn’t think would happen. No, not to me. Never. Ha.) If you do run out of power, you can add a booster unit.
DCC is not hard to set up and run. Most likely, the only thing you’ll need to do is set the locomotive address, and that’s a few easy keystrokes that are probably well-documented in the manual. (I’ve got a Lenz system myself, so I can’t vouch for the Digitrax manuals.) Your son will have no trouble using it.
I think you want DCC, and I think I’d choose the Zephyr. The wiring for what you want to do will be much easier with DCC. Your son will be able to run a train much more easily than with blocks and cabs. You can buy autoreverse controllers for the reversing sections. Installing decoders in locos with plug in connectors will generally be a snap. DCC really isn’t more complicated at the level that you’ll be using it, in my opinion. So, I’d just bite the bullet and go for it!
There’s certainly nothing cheaper than the EZ Command System that I know of. I got mine for $53 at e-bay. Most other systems start around $175 and work their way up from there. I think Bachmann has an undeserved reputation for their recent products based on the junk they used to make. Both my EZ Command system and my four Bachmann DCC engines have performed well and the engine detail approaches what you’d normally pay three or four times as much. I also have Atlas, Kato, Athearn, and even a few old AHM engines. The newer Bachmann line, while still not up to the detail standards of something like an Athearn Genesis loco, is pretty darned good and they run and pull well.
The other advantage of the EZ Command system is that an 8 year old could operate it with no problem. It does not have the bells and whistles (pun intended [:)] ) of the Digitrax system and it’s hard for a youngster to seriously screw up anything while using it. It does not have the ability to fine tune lashups like the Digitrax but I’ve found moust of my engines MU just fine even with DC. Still, it’s something to consider if you’re talking about running three or four engines of different makes and wheel arrangements as a common thing.
I guess it comes down to your budget and learning curve. If you have a big enough budget and are willing to spend the time digging through the manual, you can’t go wrong with Digitrax. If you’re trying to get you feet wet with DCC and can afford to look at the money you spend on a EZ Command system as the price of a lesson, that’s where I would start.
I would recommend you look closely at the NCE PowerCab system or MRC Prodigy Advance based on you comments and needs. My preference would be a PowerCab with the SmartBooster for the following reasons:
You want a hand held throttle system. The PowerCab is a completely hand-held system. You can add an additional hand-held throttle for as little as $75-80 with a Cab04e. The Cab04e is a basic ‘road’ cab. It has 1 big knob for the throttle control and a small keypad for selecting a loco to run. Either the Power or the 04e woud be very easy for your 8 yo son to operate. My 9 yo has been using either for many years.
A PowerCab with the SmartBooster will supply more than enough power to meet you operating requirements of 2 trains simultaneously, maybe three with some switching.
Even though you have no current interest in sound, the PowerCab has the ability to access all NMRA conforming functions thru F28.
Any DCC system that is properly wired, with the proper accessories, will be able to handle your reverse loops. The nice thing with DCC is that with the additional of a reversing circuit control of reversing sections becomes automated.
Multiple unit lashups are very easy to do with the NCE system. The PowerCab features a 2 line LCD display that easily walks the user through making a multi-unit lash-up. The Cab04e can not be used to make a consist, which is why it is considered a ‘road’ cab.
It is easy to add additional throttle plug in locations around the layout by installing Universal Throttle Panels (UTPs). With the addition of the Smart booster you can unplug and plug in anywhere.
The NCE system is also fully upgradeable meaning that as new NMRA standards are issued and as NCE updates its software you can take advantage of this by replacing the EPROM in the system. The upgrades are inexpensive - the last one was $20 and you do it yourself in about 5 m
I’ll take that look at NCE too then. I never heard it come up in the fourm conversations I looked about the easiest DCC systems before. Intuitive is good.
One thing that really appeals to me on the DCC systems is the auto reverser. I assume that I need to get auto-reversers for each reverse section, right? I may leave one of them as a regular atlas connection since it looks like the prices are steep for the auto reversers as an addition to the basic DCC system. Would I use an Atlas Twin on that DCC reverse section?
One of the reasons why DCC is a bit intimidating is below…a pic from a store site of the Zephyr auto reverser. I’m like…what do I do with that? Does this thing plug into the DCC set itself? Where the heck does it go?
In any case, I guess it’s time for me to take a gulp and plunge into the wild, wonderful world of DCC. Do the publish a “Dummies Guide” to DCC? [:D]
I’m not very well known around here but, let me see if I can shed some light on this.
Your wiring WILL be much simpler with DCC, and the versatility of running your engines vs. running the track is always a big plus. Programming and such isn’t that hard if you get an intuitive system and only care about the basics. You don’t HAVE to use and understand all the fancy programming stuff with adjusting speed tables and variables and all unless you want to.
Addressing a few of your points:
Of course you can do this with either DC or DCC, but less complicated for your son when he just has to punch in a locomotive number rather than worry about a bunch of wired blocks, switches and such.
Said it above, but bears repeating, for basic functions DCC is not complex at all, it’s very very simple.
Shouldn’t be a problem with using the kato power pack to power the switch machines seperately from the DCC system powering your layout.
With DCC you can wire the reverse loop to an autoreverse module, no switch flipping. I am under the impression that this is not the case with DC. You will however still have to throw the actual turnout still, unless you get into complex programming is my understanding.
Almost all DCC manufacturer’s offer hand held cabs. For ease of use I highly recommend the NCE Procab systems (Or PowerCab entry model, but might not have the juice in it for running much more than about 4 HO locos at a time.) After buying the Zephyr from Digitrax, and being mildly unimpressed, I hhd the opportunity to run a NCE system and it was jsut so much simpler to use and intuitive.
Again, very easy to do with most DCC systems, see above for recommendation.
If they have a plug for the decoder it really is as easy as plugging it in and fastening the decoder in, then assigning the loco an address. If they don’t have the plug there’s a bit of soldering involved to hardwire, but ass
If you’re a DCC dummy and feel that you need a simple system the Bachmann EZ-Command is the way to go. It’s simple and has a very low learning curve. A child can operate it with no problem and there’s no worry about co0mplex CV settings accidently getting screwed up. Programming is a snap and can be done in mere seconds. Also, this talk about not being able to use it to run two or more locos in consist is a bunch of balony. While you won’t be able to speed match them, you can certainly run them together under one address so that one button control all the locos in the consist. It’s an excellent starter system for someone starting out in DCC who doesn’t want to spend a lot or have to worry about a lot of settings. I’m very happy with mine.
Hey, y’all are right…took a look and the NCE Powercab entry-level system is just about the same price as a Digitrx Zephyr. $189 at Walthers, though I’m sure I could find it elsewhere for a few bucks less. If it’s more intuitive to use that will certainly be good for me.
It is a hand held…which is cool, no extra stuff to add. Does the pic below contain everything I’ll need to start (except for the auto reversers and decoders)?
Can it handle DC engines while i convert my small fleet?
Can one use as the DCC loco address the number you decalled on the side of the engine itself? That would be cool.
Does one autoreverser handle more than one reverse section? Or do you buy one for each section?
The other thing with the Bachmann EZ command is that you will be very very limited in your ability to program CVs to take advantage of all the things your new decoder equipped locos will be able to do.
Again, for ease of use I don;t think you can beat NCE. I mean, take a look at the Prodigy throttle and see how closely their throttle resembles a ProCab. You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I don’t see anyone imitating the Zephyr control unit - a fairly big box with a large display that is limited in what it can display with a large knob for speed control.
The EZ Command system, looks like the basic system is about $79 bucks, and the hand throttle is another $69. That’s a little less than $150. A that point, from what I hear, it might be worth it to just get NCE or Zephyr…esp since the NCE is hand held anyway. Just hope it’s easy to understand and use.
I guess the whole fear thing with DCC is it’s complexity as an unknown, and as Jeff says the complexity of the CV programming and screwing it up. Is that a common thing that happens? Is it easy to fix?
Sorry for the oh-so basic questions, but I guess a lot of people have these as they look to the plunge.
That’s everything you need to get started. The NCE system won’t run an analog loco. BUt once you use DCC, you won’t want to go back. Another thing is that A DC loco run on DCC has problems with reversing sections. When they it the boundary they reverse direction automatically. If you’re running a train with one that would cause a problem.
Yes, you can and should use the loco number as the decoder address. That’s the beauty of DCC and what makes it easy to select a loco. You just need to program the proper address into the decoder.
An auto reverser can handle more than one reversing section. A problem can occur of more than one train is crossing the sectio boundary at the same time then the reverser becomes confused and doesn’t know what to do. It doesn’t happen often but I have seen it happen.
I am 99% certain that the picture you posted contains everything you need minus decoders and autoreversers.
NCE systems do not have a provision for running DC locomotives at all.
You can set the locos address to whatever you’d like. I use four digit addressing and the loco number as it appears on the loco, just to make things easy to remember.
Not sure on the reverser question, sorry.
Edit: That’s what I get for trying to use the forums at work. I get beaten by a much more informative post.
I was like you when i started. but i finally made up my mind to go dcc mainly because i ordered dcc made easy by kalbach publishing. in this book dcc is exlained in easy terms and they list all the dcc systems in a comparision chart. this makes it easier to pick your system. if you go dcc you wont regret it. good luck with your choice.
JK…I’m looking at the NCE site, and trying to find the auto-reverser. It seems hard to find. Do you know if they call it something different? When I search Walthers for NCE and keyword auto reverse or variations, nothing comes up. Trying to find how much they cost. It’s very cool that the autoreverser can handle two sections.
The manual looks like it just requires a good long sit-down-and-read. I’ll just have the take the time to master it. I think the NCE might be a good steer.
It’s a mild drag that NCE doesn’t handle DC locos. Oh well. I only have about 12, so it shouldn’t take all that long. Which decoders to pick is the question there too…is there a website which offers guides to best decoders for specific manufacturer types? The Kalmbach book looks like a good thing to get too…i’ll do that, thanks.
I’m going to take the DCC plunge. May delay my layout from going operational for a few weeks, but I’m gonna do it. [:D]
I have a Zephyr and I’ll tell you the same thing I told MilwaukeeRoad. When I was looking at DCC systems I seriously considered the Zephyr, PowerCab, and Prodigy Express, and here were some of my key considerations:
Prodigy Express does not have a PC interface, the PowerCab does not, but it is supposed to be available soon, and the Zephyr has a PC interface available right now. The PowerCab has a 2 cab limit or 4 cab limit with the SmartBooster, the Express has a 20 cab limit, and the Zephyr has a 10 cab limit. The Zephyr is a console unit and the PowerCab and Express are both walkaround, so if you want walkaround with the Zephyr(which you probably will) be prepared to buy a cab. The Express is 1.6 Amps, the PowerCab is 2 Amps, and the Zephyr is 2.5 Amps. The PowerCab and Zephyr can both control accessory turnouts, the Express can not unless you upgrade it by purchasing a Prodigy Advanced cab. All three are now upgradeable to wireless, and the MRC wireless looks like a very nice setup and costs less than the Digitrax or NCE setup, although it is currently unproven.
I’ll also add a couple of points. The PowerCab is a tethered cab, which means you can not unplug it while running trains; however, if you get the SmartBooster it becomes a walkaround cab, meaning that you can unplug it and move it to a different location while your trains are running. To me, the biggest limitation for the PowerCab is the 4 cab maximum with the SmartBooster(I have 2 sons, a nephew, and 3 nieces), but this does not seam to be a concern for you. I also like the added flexibility of Loconet that you get with Digitrax.
I don’t believe that NCE makes an auto-reverser, but don’t let that influence your decision because auto-reversers are system independent.
You can pick up the Power Cab for as little as $140 from Empire Northern and Tony’s Train Exchange If you’re interested, there’s also a review of the NCE Power Cab on my web site that I did back in Feb. '06, along with a review on the Smart Booster and CAB-04p throttle. I think it’s a pretty fair assessment of each product, including their pros and cons.
Even so, the Zephyr is a very good system and definitely worth your consideration - especially if you need or want to run any “non-DCC” locomotives. None of the NCE or MRC DCC systems can do that.
CSXRobert, it does appear that NCE doesn’t make an autoreverser, but I’ve been on the TonysTrains site and they do make one. The whole autoreverser set up is something that is highly confusing to me at this point, since I dion’t understand how it sets up…it’s an electronic board thingy (forgive the technical term)…and wires between the DCC system and the track, but i guess it’s supposed to be mounted inside a fascia? Does it come in box or is it just an exposed circuit board? I know these are stoopid questions, but the autoreverser is one of the things that makes DCC attractive, along with (obviously) the independent train control.
I guess that’s why so many of us have hung on to DC…the whole DCC thing looks incredibly technical. I’m just a guy who designs landscapes for a living.
In any case, i’m gonna take this plunge…my head may explode, but I’m going for it. [:D]
As a novice in DCC I was a little reluctant to take the plunge. but after just a little experience, I’m sold. The auto reverser from Tony’s comes as a circut board. I used some irrigation hose as spacers and mounted the board to a frame member under the table close to the reverse loop. Two wires from the buss in and two wires to the track out. The unit can do much more but the setup to use the reversing portion is a piece of cake.
