That’s really good news about Tony’s autoreverser, because for just the reasons you stated…I want my son to be able to run the trains without coordinating distant toggle switches, and one of the reverse loops is on the upper deck. And with the autoreverse, he can run the trains ina virtual continuous run without worrying. The circuit breaker is obviously a big advantage too. I’ll probably get two of these, for the reverse sections on deck 1 and 2.
I eliminated one of the reverse sections last night, it wasn’t operationally necessary and was redundant of one of the other loops. I have to refrain from the impulse to fill up space with track. A certain restraint, i’m finding, really is an aid in track planning and will help the overall scene.
I suspect that my son will probably grasp the DCC system quicker than I think. I went upstairs last night and he was furiously working the computer game. He’s a gamer. I forget how techy kids are these days. Dad’s is the one who’s been DC since back in the day.[:-^]
On the decoder thing, is there any advantage with a DCC system of getting the same brand loco decoder as is the DCC system itself?
The earlier post about incompatability between different brands of DCC requires some clarification. The NMRA specifications basically let you use any brand of DCC equipment with any other brand on the “track” side of the system. On the other hand, the “command” side, which includes the controller, any boosters (if present) and the hand-held throttles, is all proprietary and in general can’t be used with other systems. That’s why it’s important to try out throttles. It’s how you will interact with the system, and you don’t have a choice of manufacturers once you’ve settled on a system. (Personally, I like the large buttons on my Lenz system. I’ve got big fingers.)
Reversers are on the “track” side, so they all play together well. So are decoders. All DCC decoders will work with all DCC systems. That’s another one that needs additional information, though. Newer decoders, particularly sound units, take advantage of more “function codes” than older ones. If you have an older or lower-end DCC system, it might not support these functions. Most of the high ones are associated with sounds, by the way, and they’ve put the common ones like horn and bell down low so they are generally accessible to everyone.
There’s no particular advantage to staying with one manufacturer for your system and decoders. Decoder features vary widely, and it’s more important to match the decoder to the locomotive than anything else. A lot of this is just the physical size and shape of the decoder, and has nothing to do with its electrical properties.
You’re a smart man. To me, the less track you “force” into a scene, the more believable the scene is.
You’re probably right but I don’t think you’ll be that far behind. [:)]
No. Any NMRA compliant DCC system will work with any decoder. You don’t need to be brand reliant. I have Lenz, Digitrax, and NCE in my locomotives.
Actually, the only “advantage” I can see in getting the same brand is familiarity with installing them or resetting them to factory settings. Even so, there are different sizes and shapes of decoders within brands.
In your original post you say you are using Kato Unitrack so I assume that your turnouts are Unitrack also. I know that Kato offers both “power routing” and “non-power routing” turnouts. Which do you have? This might affect their use in DCC.
It sound like your track may already be installed so you just want to be sure that your turnouts will work okay in DCC as installed.
I’m not well versed on what his needed here but just wanted to be sure that you check this out before having a problem. Others on the forum can probably be of help to you on this. I’m using all Atlas insulfrog turnouts and they work just fine in DCC without any modification.
I’m wiring my remote Atlas turnouts separately to be operated w/a conventional DC power pack so I believe any issue regarding DCC compatibility is moot. I don’t know about the Kato turnouts.
I don’t know what Digitrax experts jktrains has been talking to, but the Zephyr can do Advanced consisting. The default setting for Option Switch 17 is closed which disables automatic advanced decoder assisted consists. If you change the setting to thrown, it enables advanced consisting. I own a Zephyr and have done this and it works.
jktrains,
It’s positively amazing that you can write so may wrong statements in this day and age of instant information on the web. You know, it might be a good idea if you did a little research on the subject matter before spouting off.
You wrote: “That’s why none of the Digitrax systems can’t do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions.”
Wrong. They can do both. Advanced Consisting must be enabled by programming the command station’s OPSW variable. Accessing the higher (above F12) functions can be done with a computer interface. No DCC throttle other than the MRC PA or PE can handle over F12, BTW. And to date, no HO locomotive or HO decoder uses above F12 other than the MRC sound decoders and MTH’s K-4 (which may need their non-NMRA DCS system to operate).
You wrote: “Their software can’t be upgraded.”
Also untrue. Digitrax software can be upgraded. The DCS100 had an upgrade in the 1990’s, and the Zephyr also had an upgrade to fix a bug shortly after it came out. Other than that, there has been no real need to upgrade it. It’s a peer-to-peer network.
You wrote: “Digitrax makes it so their software can’t be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their ‘loconet’ compliant products.”
As pointed out, Digitrax software can be upgraded (and that has been done in the past). And it is possible to use a couple of Lenz boosters with a Digitrax layout (just like you can use Digitrax boosters with Lenz or Marklin command stations). As for having to use their “‘loconet’ compliant products”…well, duh. CVP & Lenz are the only cross compatible throttles out there. You can’t use an MRC throttle on an NCE layout any more than you can use a Digitrax throttle on a Lenz layout. Loconet, while proprietory, is all but free to develop into whatever you want. Just look at all
Jerry - The Kato track has both power routing and non-power routing options. That adpatability, plus the switch machine embedded in the trackbed itself, are nice aspects of the Kato system. The factory default setting is power routing, which I’ve used in my old DC layout. I assume, then, that I’ll need to set them to non-power routing?
I’m going to control those switches with an old Kato powerpack that is part of the Kato system. I have 4 powered turnouts, all to the back or second level, the rest are manual and near the aisle.
Tstage and MrBeasley - it’s good find out that the decoders can be from any company, and I’ll call TonysTrains and I’m sure they’ll help me out with my particular loco fittings. But, without opening a can of worms, are there are brands of decoders that one should avoid, any that are unreliable or of bad reputation?
I just went out and bought the Lionel Strang “DCC” book, so I’ll devour that this week. I guess it was written a while ago since it does not include the NCE Powercab system.
I’m actually getting pretty excited about DCC. It should be fun to operate, and it’s an interesting challenge. I’m ready to do this. Thanks everyone!
DCC Made Easy by Lionel Strang is a good reference. Lionel has a knack for being able to describe something that is complicated in everyday english. I believe he wrote that about 3 years ago.
As far as decoders to avoid. I’d just stick to the reliables: Digitrax, NCE, Lenz and TCS. The choice you’ll have then is what features you want:
Lighting somes in 2, 4 and 6 funtion decoders. The more functions, the more fancy light effects you can have on your particular locomotive.
Back EMF is one of my favorites because it allows me to switch or start out at verrrry low speeds, thereby mimicking more realistic operation.
There’s also silent and non-silent decoders. The non-silent ones “growl” slightly.
There’s one more (besides sound) but I’m drawing a blank at the moment.
Shawnee, Tony’s Train Exchange has a nice Decoder Comparison Matrix so that you can see what decoders have what features. I’ve found it very handy.
MRC decoders have a bad reputation. I don’t have any myself, so I can’t speak from personal experience.
TCS decoders come with a “goof-proof” guarantee. Even if you toast the decoder by accidentally plugging it directly into the wall socket, they’ll replace it. They are also one of the most “bargain priced” decoders on the market. I have one problem with these - they only seem to consist in the forward direction, at least when using my Lenz system. Still, I’ve got a couple of them and other than that, they run just fine.
OK, so they can do advanced consisting, it just not their default setting for consisting. Would be nice to be given the choice between either method as part of the consist set-up.
So you say that the software can be upgraded. If D choose to do this, how would it be done? Openning the case voids the warranty. Send the unit back to D for installation?
You’ve proven my point about obsolesence! If you want to access the higher functions, the Zephyr is obsolete, the DT100 is obsolete, DT300 - obsolete too since its only good to F8. You need to go out and spend approx $150 on a DT400 and even then you only get less than 50% of the ones available. A UT2 can only access up to F5. I was able to get access to F28 for $20; no need to buy a $150 throttle. Sure seems that a software upgrade would have been a nice option, and more cost effective for the consumer.
Based on CSX Roberts comments, and yours in other threads, the duplex radio is due around year end. CSX says that this will open up functions through F28. Again, how for non duplex users? By requiring a user to purchase the duplex radio system? Will your current DT400r work with the duplex system? My guess would be no because the DT400r only contains a transmitter and no receiver. The current UR91 is only a receiver, based on the description of the web. You’ve indicated you’ve talked to D reps, have they provided any insight about backward compatibility, especially for throttles? Will you need to send your DT400s back to D to have a receiver added?
Paul, in this day of access to info its amazing you can make misstatements too. To say that no HO locomotive or HO decoder uses above F12 is in error. A little research would show that the new Genesis Big Boys uses through F28. I have a P2K U28B with sound that uses through F28.
What it boils down to is a Ford v Chevy thing. Each likes
When it is time for me to go radio, there will be a expense for the hardware involved. To me this is no different than replacing a failed RAID hard drive off Newegg.
Just not as much because as long as the Loconet remains part of Digitrax’s core I dont have a problem with upgrading.
Yes you have these high function keys. I say so what? The most you ever use is the whistle, Bell and maybe the F9 load key, at least in my railroad. The rest of the cute buttons is more for showing off to the non-railroader who wants to hear the flushing tender.
Now I will say that the Dt400 is a nice throttle and feel it should be incorperated into the Zephyr and the old format scrapped. When this is done and a new Zephyr two is issued at a lower price there will be more adopters espeically if this zephyr already contains a radio.
Copper ethernet is going to die a corrosive, painful death against the advances of Radio, wireless or other forms of communication that disposes of the copper wire.
When you set the default on the Zephyr to advanced consisting, you can still setup a universal consist. Give the consist a short address, and it will use advanced consisting, give it a long address and, since an advanced consist address can only be short addresses, it will use universal consisting. You can also tell the command station if a particular engine supports advanced consisting and if it doesn’t it will use universal consisting for that engine even if the rest of the consist is an advanced consist.
Previously, jktrains mentioned the book about mastering the Zephyr and said "The question posed by that is “If it is such a simple, beginner’s type system then why is there a need for such a book?'” I do no have the book, so I do not know what is in it but I can understand the need for such a book. Even though the Zephyr is easy to use, it is still a full featured system. The subject of consisting is a good example. I think universal consisting is better for beginners. If the default was advanced, I think it would be easy for a beginner to setup a consist and, forgetting that the consist is stored in the engine, take the enigne to another layout and not understand why it would not work. At this point, reprogramming the engines address won’t even get the engine to respond. The user would have to know to reprogram CV19 to 0 or do a decoder reset. It would also be easy for a beginner to setup a consist, and then try to clear a consist while one or more of the engines are not on the layout. Then the command station would think the consist is cleared, but any engine not on the layout would still be programmed for the consist. In short, I think Digitrax tried to make the Zephyr easy to use, but also maintain most of the power and flexibility of the Chief, and, in my opion, they did a good job.
What Paul said was “…no HO locomotive or HO decoder uses above F12 other than the MRC sound decoders and MTH’s K-4…”. Although he did not ment
I worry more about different engine and decoder manufactors doing thier own thing when it comes to programming CV’s.
They should really just adopt QSI’s CV chart and move forward and find ways to document the process so that the beginner is not buried in something that is intimidating or perhaps not so in-need of still additional learning like some charts are presented in Binary form requiring one to learn the 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1 for each of the 8 bits for a total of 255.
There should be one CV chart that covers ALL the engines and ALL possible varibles up to what? 255 different options? So that when someone says… I programmed CV2 to blah blah… everyone understands what CV 2 is.
I would like for a DCC system to support the Modeler in this way regardless of it’s overall ability. A one amp trainset DCC starter system should be just as functional as a Super Chief across all CV and commonly used function keys.
That is one reason I bought the Chief, I didnt want to be caught with something that did not incorperate something down the road should that something something be needing adjustment.
I am faintly amused at all the talk of higher functions above F12 to F28 and beyond… what are we trying to accomplish here? Keep payroll on each engine and train crewman? Keep tabs on water or coal remaining? Listen to the Roadmaster chew out a careless employee inside the yard office?
Im afraid that we may get so caught up in the functions that we spend an hour just starting the thing up and getting it all right before recieving clearence to actually drive the model train somewhere on that layout sometime before dinnertime.
LOL, I agree with you. Its almost like a who has the most toys(or function’s) wins sort of thing. I’ve got a few sound loco’s and all I ever use is the horn and the bell. All the rest of the sounds get really boring in like 2 seconds.
That’s pretty funny. Well, I may indeed eventually be wrong about sound, and grow into a profound delight in it. However, when the come out with the function, I seriously doubt that I would ever be interested in tracking my crew’s payroll. Especially if one of the CVs involves sick time or guys not showing up to work. I got enough of that kind of headache at my real job! [(-D] I guess the basic function buttons will serve me just fine for a long. long time…DCC newbie that I am and all.
But um…but does one of the CVs control a coffee maker?
