Why does Canadian National operate under that name in the United States instead of Grand Trunk Western and Canadian Pacific does the same instead of Soo Line.
They operated under their US corporate entities for many many years.
Is this just a money thing? Their US rails must operate under much the same structure corporate wise with their own structure as it did for many years. The border is still there, operations are different, labour laws are different, tax laws are different. The only bucks I can see saved are paint and stationary but I must be wrong with that.
As a Canadian it’s a bit puzzling to me. I miss GT/GTW and Soo Line, also CV, DSS&A, DT&I, DW&P and some others…The smaller routes could go under the GTW and Soo Line umbrella fine and dandy, understandable. Not getting it!
It’s done for marketing purposes mostly. So right now CN Marketing reps are running around Wisconsin telling current and perspective shippers that they have a one railroad solution to the Pacific Coast Ports now to Asia and how much that should simplify things for them. Had they kept the WC, Soo Line and whatever other names that would be a much harder sell to make as it would seem like two lines, they would have to deal with.
On the other hand……what US RR’s still operate in Canada?
BNSF: Seattle to Vancouver: I believe the terminal trackage from the Fraser River Bridge into Vancouver is still owned by BNSF but maintained and dispatched by CN.
CSX: Montreal Secondary from Syracuse to Valleyfield and Beauharnois QC (to be sold)
But go back a few years:
NYC/Penn Central/Conrail: Detroit/Windsor to Ft. Erie/Niagara/Buffalo – now mostly abandoned. (this route also had Amtrak service from Detroit to New York across southern Ontario)
C&O: Sarnia to Chatham and rights on NYC/Penn Central/Conrail to Ft. Erie/Niagara/Buffalo
Wabash (N&W): rights on CN from Detroit/Windsor to Ft. Erie/Niagara/Buffalo
Great Northern: several branch lines crossing into Manitoba and British Columbia.
Deleware & Hudson (Napierville Jct Rwy) now CP: Lacolle to Delson QC
Those subsidiaries were set up for legal reasons that I’m not really conversant in. Much the same as occurred in several US states due to requirements that railroads operating there be “based” there.
I don’t think it’s necessary to maintain the sham any longer.
I believe that the domestic example tree68 brought up refers to the one-time requirement in the Texas constitution regarding railroads in Texas. It was deemed to be state regulation of interstate commerce by a Federal court and contrary to the Constitution of the United States.
International operations may still require at least a paper subsidiary in the other country for a whole variety of legal and practical reasons.
Prior to NAFTA it made sense for CN and CP to have distinct corporate entities in the United States. Subsequent to NAFTA we’re much more integrated and no longer need to keep the oranges separate from the apples… that they’re all fruit and in one basket is good enough for regulatory and tax purposes… at least for now. Who knows what Trump will do. CN Rail in Mississippi might not be quite in keeping with his make America great again mantra.
ghCBNS-- There was also the New York Central line all the way into Ottawa. They were very proud of that line for a long time. There are untold stories and secrets from WWII along that route. It was abandoned very late fifties and lifted after that. Important bridge crossing in the Thousand Island area.
The bridge crossing was actually at Cornwall, considerably downstream from the Thousand Island area. By the late fifties I suspect the traffic had dwindled considerably, and the St.Lawrence Seaway was being built. Abandonment may have been accelerated, even encouraged, to eliminate the need for expensive new lift bridges over the new canal on the American side, paid for by the Seaway Authority (government).
I recall seeing the north end stub of the bridge into the early sixties; don’t know when it was finally dismantled.
Thanks cx500…yes I knew Cornwall, suppose I should not have put it in the Thousand Island area, just keeping it simple. I did a special thread on this, a photo essay with a good discussion ensuing, the bridge and the NYCentral line on the Classic Trains thread about a year ago. In addition to using Ottawa Union Station the NYCentral had their own station in Ottawa. They used FM power on this line when Dieselized.
I have one of the very large station signs ’ CN Coburg’ that was on the side of the building facing the tracks. It’s mounted on a sloping wall of a A frame under some skylights.
There were actually two lines into Canada from the NYC Adirondack Division. The former NY and Ottawa took off from Tupper Lake Junction (Faust), while the Mohawk & Malone (AKA Adirondack & St Lawrence) ran from Tupper Lake through Malone and on to Montreal.
By the early 1960’s both lines were gone and the Adirondack Division dead-ended at Lake Placid, as it does to this day.
A hot train on the ADK Division to Montreal was the northbound BA-1 - the “Banana Train.” While I haven’t researched it, I would imagine it carried other perishables as well.
Exactly, Soo Line and Dakota Minnesota and Eastern still exist on paper. They have separate labor agreements. A few years ago there was an exchange of trackage rights between the Soo and DM&E before the STB. Each granted the other access to a few routes and terminals. (Ostensibly to enhance service, but more likely to allow lesser paid DM&E crews to do some work done by higher paid Soo Line crews.) Customers only see and deal with CPRS.
Canadian Pacific only owned 56% of Soo Line prior to 1990, so they were limited in what the could do with it. Prior to the 1961 merger agreement their ownership of
Soo Line proper was very close to 50%, but they owned 100% of the DSS&A which increased their ownership of the merged entity.
Jeff with the divestiture of the Airline, Mining Co., Hotels, and Shipping, the company is now just using Canadian Pacific as the corporate title, so the abbreviation of just “CP” rather than CPRS is used.
The Grand Trunk Corporation still exists as a wholy-owned subsidiary of Canadian National, as a holding company for all lines in the U.S.
I imagine Soo Line still exists (perhaps under another name) in a similar fashion for CP.
More recently CN has been ordering new locomotives and listing them as being owned by one of the American lines. I have seen IC, WC, GTW, Chicago Central & Pacific, and even the Sault Ste Marie Bridge Company listed on the FRA blue card as owners. But the same card always says “operated by Canadian National”.
I assume this is something the accountants came up with, for what reason who knows. But these units all have CN road numbers and of course all wear normal CN paint.
The yard locos in Flint, Mi are sub lettered GTW. One of them is even painted GTW blue. It is often easier to maintain a corporation then to dissolve it. Major legal hassles and historical legal issues as well as contracts and agreements. Throw in soil contamination and you keep the old corp alive to cover your rear.
The locomotive numbers seem to be a different matter. I’ve observed that CN has not actually re-numbered the locomotives acquired through various mergers. When a locomotive is repainted into CN colours, it retains its old number with sublettering from the prior road (IC, DM&IR, EJ&E, WC, etc.).
The US requires railroads operating in the US to be dispatched by dispatchers located in the US. That way the FRA has jusridiction over the dispatching operations.
Railroads operating in the United States must be dispatched from the USA, except for those Canadian Railroads specified in 49 CFR Part 241 Appendix A. There are only four exceptions, the closest one is the CN’s Sprague Subdivision from Baudette, MN to International Boundry, Minnesota (near International Falls, MN. This in the far northern part of Minnesota on the south side of Lake of the Woods. There are two small Minnesota towns on that line.
International Boundary is just west of Warroad, Mn and the 44 miles runs to Baudette. Middlebro, Mb on the west side and Rainy River, On on the east side of those 44 miles.
The 44 miles runs through Longworth, Warroad, Swift, Roosevelt, Williams, Pitt, Graceton, Baudette and a few others I know I am forgetting.