Especially in transit, which for ages has had remote controlled doors, what are some reasons why a vehicle operator, or even agency, would not want to use as many doors as possible to speed passenger flow?
I’ve seen extremes: Jamaica, Queens NY on the Long Island Railroad, 3 12 car trains will meet on adjacent tracks with shared platforms between them. All doors open on the inward side of the outer 2 trains, and all doors on both sides of the middle train. Passengers from train 1 walk across platform 1, train 2, and platform 2 to board train 3.
the other end of the spectrum, Philadelphia streetcar, the motorman opens only 1 of the 2 front doors, regardless of how big the alighting crowd.
still sticking it to Philly, Suburban Station, some tracks have had 2 platforms since the early 1980’s, yet I don’t remember ever seeing a train open both sides.
My experience at a RR museum is that you only use the doors on one side so that you can watch the people detraining. This makes sure nothing unusual happens, like a fall.
In transit, with remote control doors, you’d need one person on each sideto mind the doors.
Single end cars have doors on only one side to provide addtional seats.
With on-board operator fair collection, opening only one front door limits fair evasion. As well as allowing the operator safety supervision.
In communities where there is general law obayance, most transit systems do allow exiting by the rear door, streetcars as well as buses. Toronto is one example that uses all doors.
Note that Jamaica Station has straight platform tracks, high platforms, and a history of useing a train on one track as a bridge for passengers changing between trains on both sides of that train. Happens every day during rush hour, when a Penn Station local (stopping at Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, and Woodside, the latter for connection to the IRT & direct to Grand Central and Times Square) Penn Station Express, and Atlantic and Flatbush Aves. Brooklyn Express are synchronized to exchange passengers at Jamaica, the three having come from three different LI suburban points.
Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman’s right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said “That’s for crowd control”. In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.
Some more modern buses I’ve seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units’ door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don’t have.
Phildelphia city single ended PCC’s had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly’s replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they’d break those switches, something impossibl
Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman’s right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said “That’s for crowd control”. In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.
Some more modern buses I’ve seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units’ door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don’t have.
Phildelphia city single ended PCC’s had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly’s replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they’d break those switches, something impossibl
Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman’s right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said “That’s for crowd control”. In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.
Some more modern buses I’ve seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units’ door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don’t have.
Phildelphia city single ended PCC’s had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly’s replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they’d break those switches, something impossibl
As most people have said, it’s partly custom, partly safety.
I agree that part of the “custom” part is that in the USA we are reluctant to let passengers board on the honor system in the middle of a vehicle (LRT say), although I know of at least one system (Charlotte’s LYNX), where you buy your ticket or pass by machine at the station, but LRT system employees can check that out on a random basis on the train. My understanding is it’s a civic citation and a considerable fine if caught without card or ticket. There are probably others I just don’t know about.
The honor system seems to be pretty much the rule on public transit systems in the German-speaking countries. At least, I have never seen otherwise, not even on buses. But their systems also allow the possibility that the cheating passenger will be kontrolliert, found without ticket or card, then cited and fined.
Platforms don’t come cheap. Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there.
How fast do you want to rush in and out of the train? You want stampedes?
you’re more likely to get stampedes in places where you restrict access. If you have 50 people at a terminal who want to get off and you open only 1 door it’s going to be a bigger problem than if you open 2 doors. And I would expect that both the operating authority and the passengers would want station dwell time to be as short as practical.
I’m not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I’m talking about why doesn’t a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.
One of the examples I gave was SEPTA Suburban station. Granted, it’s been about 3 years since I’ve hung out and watched, maybe they’ve changed things since then. Fare collection is the old fashioned way, train crew comes through and lifts tickets, so fare enforcement doesn’t seem like an issue. 2 of the tracks have platforms on both sides, so why doesn’t SEPTA use both platforms on those tracks.
Most of the cars have remote controlled doors, so again, why doesn’t SEPTA open every door at their high platform railroad stations? I’ve been on many 2 car trains, 2 doors per side per car, and had the crew open only 1 door. What was wrong with those other 3 doors? The impression I get is that some of the crew members just didn’t want to bother getting up and watching the passenger flow. But some trains I saw where they did open every door, even the engineer’s door, so this reinforces my impression that it’s crew member’s laziness, not some real safety or fare collection issue. And just a few blocks away on the Market and Broad St subways it’s been open all doors since dinosaur times.
Again, it’s been a few years since I rode, but AMTRAK would do the s
There are so many reasons. Each instance you stated is a different situation. Sometimes it is crowd control on and off the train, sometimes crowd control at the station itself. Sometimes it is because there is a platform only on one side. Sometimes it is the only door(s) that work! Sometimes it is so that the train crew can see or observe best. Sometimes you don’t want someone getting on the train or not in a particular car or you want to see if someone got on. There as many answers as number of trains and stops per day!
Marta in Atlanta at the 5 Points station the train operator opens the doors on both sides of the train. Even more to the point MARTA operates trains with a single operator(who controls the doors) no conductor. It does delay the door openings when the platform is on the left side of the train while the operator gets up and goes to the other side.(and on departure as well)
One other comment. I saw a picture of a bus in use in Rome(Italy) 35 or 40 footer I think. The interesting thing about the bus was 4 sets of double doors on each side of the bus. With loads being what they were this kind of setup had the ability to soak up crowds in a big hurrry.
That’s a different matter. And frankly, dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations.
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I’m not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I’m talking about why doesn’t a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.
One of the examples I gave was SEPTA Suburban station. Granted, it’s been about 3 years since I’ve hung out and watched, maybe they’ve changed things since then. Fare collection is the old fashioned way, train crew comes through and lifts tickets, so fare enforcement doesn’t seem like an issue. 2 of the tracks have platforms on both sides, so why doesn’t SEPTA use both platforms on those tracks.
Most of the cars have remote controlled doors, so again, why doesn’t SEPTA open every door at their high platform railroad stations? I’ve been on many 2 car trains, 2 doors per side per car, and had the crew open only 1 door. What was wrong with those other 3 doors? The impression I get is that some of the crew members just didn’t want to bother getting up and watching the passenger flow. But some trains I saw where they did open every door, even the engineer’s door, so this reinforces my impression that it’s crew member’s laziness, not some real safety or fare collection issue. And just a few blocks away on the Market an
The center platform at Columbus Circle 59th Street is the popular boarding point for fantrips and “Nostalgia Specials” using operating museum equipment.
I’m a bit hazy about why you think dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations. If the train’s finishing its run and doesn’t have to be anywhere else and there’s a pocket at the terminal for it to sit in then I’d agree with you, but that’s not always the case. for example Penn Station New York I imagine they need to get trains out of the way, even though they have an enormous number of tracks. And Suburban Station Philadelphia most trains run through, even though the majority of passengers usually disgorge there in the morning and board there in the evening.
I have actually asked on occasion. At least once the brusque response was “Cause that’s the door I opened”. Another occasion a 5 car train pulled in, crew member inside opened a door, got out and closed it immediately. I asked him where “Where do you want me to board”, he said “Up front with the rest of the cattle.” There were easily more than 40 people milling about that stretch of platform already before he opened the door, and
Probably the neatest place to see the use of both sides of train doors open is on the LIRR Jamaica station during peak hours whereby a train becomes an extended platform between two other trains’ platforms. Done in both directions and it’s fun to watch as a fan and welcomed as a harried commuter!
Is it not the case that all trains run through Center City, except for Amtrak?
NYP is a terminus for both NJT and LIRR. Used to be that, for NJT at least, trains would open up twenty minutes prior to departure (even at tracks other than 1 through 4, which are the only terminal tracks and used by NJT only); back in those days, NJT kept the center doors on Arrows shut, even during rush hour. Now NJT, for reasons unknown and never explained at least to my satisfaction, waits until five minutes to departure before boarding trains.
LIRR trains usually run through to West Side Yard. Some NJT trains run through to Sunnyside Yard. Even with NYP as busy as it is, there aren’t any (that I know of) inbound trains that are turned within minutes for outbound runs during evening rush (reverse that for morning rush). I’ve never seen a train at NYP that detrains passengers only to have it fill up with outbound passengers right away.
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Maybe you should ask the crew members why they do that instead of j
Of course, like in the example of PATH at 33rd St. and Hoboken, too, one side is opened to allow passengers to detrain then a minute or two later the other side opens to allow new pasengers to board…this being at terminal locations is simply to keep passenger from sneaking a second trip and allow the quick loading and unloading.
Train crews may not open doors not out of laziness but out of passenger safety and or security. It would be prefered, especially at low platform stations, that passenger be able to be assisted by the train crew. Plus crew doesn’t want one sneaking aboard on the other side and not having ticket picked up.
As I said earlier, there are so many scenerios and reasons why and why not, we could go on and on and never cover them all. But safety, security, and efficiency of operateing are the three prime reason door open or not.
As far as I remember, there are no Penn Staiton, NY tracks that have platforms on both sides. And yes, there are some NJ Transit and LIRR trains that discharge and reverse without moving to the yard. Seen it with my own eyes. But this is not usually seen by travelers, because usually the boarding passengers for these particular trains are held at the upstairs or mezzanine gate points until the discharge passengers ascend the elevator, escalators, or stairs for that platform. HOW DID I SEE IT? Well, if you were a very informed railfan and wanted to be assured of a window seat in the middle of a car on the most scenic side and wanted to board before the running herd, what would you do? Even as a teenager:
Hey kid, you’re not supposed to be here.
I know.
What are you doing here?
Waiting for the Bablylon (or Trenton or Port Washington) train to arrive, discharge all its passengers, and then board.
The Twin Cities / Hiawatha line LRT works like the Charlotte one it sounds like. You buy tickets from a machine if you don’t use a monthly commuter pass. They aren’t routinely collected but you can be asked to produce it by employees or police doing random checks, and can be given a fine/ticket for not having one.
One exception (about not checking) are for people parking out in Bloomington or south Minneapolis and going to-from Twins or Vikings games in downtown. There are policemen at the platform and you have to show your ticket to ride. Most people at the park-and-rides buy the special ‘event day’ round trip tickets which are good for I think six hours, as the normal commuter ticket is good for as many rides as you want but only for I think a three hour period. Police check you at the Metrodome end too, after the game a lot of people who bought the regular tickets to get downtown are surprised to find out the