Bought a Westside SP GS-8 fot $135 in 1973 (full price). According to BLS Inflation calculator, should be worth about $787. Would actually sell for less than half in mint condition.
Investment grade brass is an oxymoron.
Andre
No for a few reasons:
- Young folk have much less disposable income than those who collected the high end brass in the past.
- Young folk are generally more interested in modelling the modern era.
- I bought a 2nd hand unused late model (good running) Intermountain AC-12 for $270. To get close in brass you’re at the PSC level.
- I had a PSC DMIR M-4. Beautiful model. Loved the look and ran like a bag of spanners, and I do know my way around fixing these things. One reason I got rid of it about 10 years ago was that we were at the height of steam in HO new models IMHO - which we wont see again as the generation with an interest in this is ahem thinning out - and I was waiting for a mass maker to bring a model out and therefore devalue what I had. Now MTH did do it and TBH whilst a decent effort it was a letdown so pricing has remained highish albeit when one accounts for inflation they are less valuable than when I sold. If Intermountain or BLI had done the job I believe the desire for the PSC would to an extent have evaporated. So it is a precarious business.
- Owning these things and keeping them chuffing along nicely requires a skill-set that once common is now the preserve of the oldies. Me included. And that there isn’t the local fellow who can do the work for you reasonably and cheaply.
I have no idea what brass prices were back in 97, my life was pretty tumultuous back then.
Today I have 5 pieces of brass, all bought to run, and the only way to model GN steam that I know of (just something about Belpair fireboxes and flying pumps). All need to be tinkered with to get to run smoothly, and several need painting, but since my current layout consists of a 6’ piece of test track- what better way to stay active than to tinker?
Of the 5, I only went overboard pricewise (for my budget) on 1, and it is an 88 model, and probably the biggest disappoint due to its running characteristics. The rest I am completely satisfied with considering what was spent.
There are several folks putting out exquisite models, but at exquisite prices too. Seems that’s what happens when only 11 or 16 versions of something get made.
I like older brass…
Kevin
Fascinating thread! I bought a handful of brass items because they were the only available models of the prototypes in which I am interested: Erie RR K-1 Pacific (see my avatar); Gas-electric Doodlebug; 2 cabooses unique to the Erie. These were all bought within the last few years. According to Dan’s website, the Pacific and Doodlebug have risen in price and the cabooses have fallen somewhat. Possibly because the two motive power items are quite unique and beautiful models. (They ran OK but I have added decoders and improved the pick-up on the Pacific.) Whether or not they change value over the future is irrelevant to me because I enjoy running and looking at them. Another factor is as we old grayheads pass on, the number of Erie fans who might appreciate these unique models will probably decline also. But that doesn’t spoil my fun!
Dante
Hello Howard–
Always enjoyable to read your posts.
At this point, I just do not believe the rising tide of prices on the recent, very limited production, and sometimes quite outstanding brass models will result in the prices of all the vintage brass out there increasing.
There is a perception among the hard core brass hounds over on multiple Facebook brass forums that “only junk dealers sell on Ebay now”, so maybe that’s why my own models aren’t selling. However, even on consignment, I have mint models that are underperforming sales expectations.
Do we really have a marketing problem? Should we not be promoting the vintage brass as being a good low cost entry point and an opportunity to learn with?
I was born in 1968 and have no real memories of everyday working freight steam, yet somehow am absolutely fascinated, and plastic just doesn’t cut it for me (thank you for that, Howard, you have been a “mentor” and an inspiration).
Thanks to Howard, I’ve worked to seek out those few people (ok, one 80 year old now retired pro-painter and rebuilding expert, not named Howard himself) who can provide me with a few (upgraded) good running vintage models at reasonable or fair prices, and I no longer have to have the latest thing, but have been shown quite graphically via photos and videos of failed Korean components why Japanese can be better and more durable to operate on a layout.
John
I cannot say for certain which of my brass models I purchased first.
I know my first brass locomotive was a Tenshodo 0-8-0, but I traded to get that one, it was not a purchase.
-Kevin
Kevin, Which one of those beautiful Tenshodo 0-8-0s do you have?
With BLI and MTH and others coming out with plastic steam of the prototype I model. Brass prices have dropped tremendously on models I need or want. I’m currently doing a sound decoder install on an H9s 2-8-0. The cost of the brass locomotive and Tsunami decoder was still over $100 less than a plastic similar version.
With super magnets available there is no need to remotor old brass. My Westside K5 is weighted heavy and will pull 19 heavy weight passenger cars up grade drawing around 1amp. I really enjoyed dating it with details to a 1937 photos. All my other brass are factory painted. I run my brass. The chrome plated wheels are completely worn to bronze on my MB Awstin F3 2-6-0.
I’m glad brass has become more affordable. I’m setting my sights on a Turbine 6-8-6. I don’t need it but would like to have one.
Pete
[quote user=“PRR8259”]
Hello Howard–
Always enjoyable to read your posts
At this point, I just do not believe the rising tide of prices on the recent, very limited production, and sometimes quite outstanding brass models will result in the prices of all the vintage brass out there increasing.
There is a perception among the hard core brass hounds over on multiple Facebook brass forums that “only junk dealers sell on Ebay now”, so maybe that’s why my own models aren’t selling. However, even on consignment, I have mint models that are underperforming sales expectations.
Do we really have a marketing problem? Should we not be promoting the vintage brass as being a good low cost entry point and an opportunity to learn with?
I was born in 1968 and have no real memories of everyday working freight steam, yet somehow am absolutely fascinated, and plastic just doesn’t cut it for me (thank you for that, Howard, you have been a “mentor” and an inspiration).
Thanks to Howard, I’ve worked to seek out those few people (ok, one 80 year old now retired pro-painter and rebuilding expert, not named Howard himself) who can provide me with a few (upgraded) good running vintage models at reasonable or fair prices, and I no longer have to have the latest thing, but have been shown quite graphically via photos and videos of failed Korean components why Japanese can be better and more durable to operate on a layout.
John,
Always good to see your posts and thanks for fine words. When I, Ken Young, and Bob Hess began Brass Expo in Columbia, Md in '95, the show was an immediate sell out…both for vendors and attendees. One more body stuffed into the Columbia Inn would have brought the fire chief in full battle gear. It got better when we moved to New Bruswick, NJ with attendance equal to many fine train shows and kept growing through our other locations until 9-11 put an abrupt end to it. 13 years late
Larry: It is a USRA locomotive with a clear vision tender.
I traded two Kato undecorated N scale SD-40s for it.
It runs great, but it is a little noisy. The paint was on it when it came to me. Eventually I will fix the boiler front and paint it… eventually.
I have another USRA 0-8-0 from Alco Models that runs much better, but it is still bare brass so rarely was run.
This one ran for years on my last two layouts.
This is also one of only three brass locomotives i have with a front coupler.
I attended Dan’s brass expo show in Chicago, since my wife has family in Indiana not too far away, it was an easy trip to make.
Kevin
My experience with the Chicago brass show was excactly the opposite. Upon arriving as a dealer, staff met me at doors and helped with my set up…then two days later…take down. I found all of the staff to be quite friendly and courteous. Most of the vendors and importers were quite well behaved…otherwise no one talked down to me. I’ve been out of the loop for a long time so many did not know that I was the previous owner of the show and dealer. I’m probably one of the worst dressers on the planet…always jeans, shirt never tucked in, and soiled ball cap. The only negatives were that I tried to convince Dan, that moving the show was a bad idea, and table prices were a bit too high…making the show affordable to only large dealers and importers. When I ran the show, i did not want importers only but the guy with some brass in the closet looking to sell and trade. You may have been somewhat intimidated by the oppulence and pricing of new brass…and understandably so. I was and I’m not known for being poor. It could not have been your appearance as no one can beat me on that subject.
HZ
Sort of like owning a real piece of “art”; which often is a kind of a status symbol of those weathy enough to afford such things. Very often Art is considered a luxury and among hobbyists, similar could be said of higher cost brass engines (not the cheap deals found on eBay btw).
I could be wrong but it seems that those with a disposable income sufficient to afford costly brass engines sometimes talk of the subject as if it’s sort of common place or “routine” for them. But to many hobbyists, buying expensive brass engines is financially out of reach, just like owning a luxury car may be out of reach. By world standards, definitely in the luxury category.
Or passage from lower disposable income to higher disposable income - for some when they can start buying expensive brass engines - they have “arrived”. Much of my life I’ve viewed brass locomotives as being out-of-reach to me financially. Even in more recent years as my disposable income has increased, I’d have to sell off a lot of equipment to afford a small number of brass engines. But I’ve never felt it necessary to
I agree with Howard that these models are an art form just in themselves, but even art has varying price levels, and I don’t think one has to spend a lot of money to get something good and usable.
Yet now there is a fantastic group of brass modelers over on Facebook devoted to not just collecting but remotoring, regearing, and modifying these models, and upgrading to today’s standards. There are how to do it photos and videos over there, and helpful enough people such that somebody who really wanted to dive in could go on Facebook and learn from some real pros (whom I never yet have had the opportunity to meet in person). Some of these people are taking the models to a level frankly beyond what I ever expected, with dcc, sound, working classification lights, working cab interior lights, red firebox glow, sometimes even working power reverse (a few models were also made with that feature). They go into great detail regarding what doesn’t work right and how to fix it. There are some notable areas where the Korean models have issues that should be repaired. The delayed motion articulated gearboxes, that allow one set of articulated drivers to slip and begin moving before the others were a great idea, but they do not last because a couple gears are way too small to hold up.
There are even a few twenty-somethings who are passionate about these brass trains (Adam Pomeranz).
Many of the same people lurk in more than one group. I highly recommend the following groups:
Brass Model Paint and Repair
Brass Locomotive Collectors
The Brass Locomotive Collectors and Operators
Brass Model Train Buy Swap and Sell
PFM Sound (which is moderated by Hal Maynard)
John
I’m pretty forgiving when it comes to “right details” because I can’t pick them out in the real world in the first place. “Looks pretty much like what an SD70ACe looks like” is good enough for me.
Even if I was, though, brass has nothing for me. I’m a contemporary (I’m reluctant to say “modern” because that’s almost a 65 year swath now) guy and the railroads I have an interest in and plan to have represented in some manner on my layout have a very limited fleet. Some SD40-3s and GP40-3s pretty much does it for me. Aside from the sort of work I’m going to have to do myself, like making sure the ditch lights are above or below the deck on a specific locomotive, I can largely find what I need to find. But the NS/CSX runthrough power…plastic does a pretty good job nowadays with the Evos and SD70s.
I do have the “well…this doesn’t fit, but is pretty nice…” stuff for the modular club. The I-12 wagontop caboose from Spring Mills Depot is very, very nice. Why would I pay 4 or 5 times the price for one a brass one that with cruder details?
[quote user=“riogrande5761”]
There always was a certain element to buying brass that went beyond “I just need a locomotive to pull my trains.” I won’t say that brass was bought as an investment but much of it was bought because it was, in one meaning of the word or another, “art.” Collected for its beauty and fascination.
Sort of like owning a real piece of “art”; which often is a kind of a status symbol of those weathy enough to afford such things. Very often Art is considered a luxury and among hobbyists, similar could be said of higher cost brass engines (not the cheap deals found on eBay btw).
I could be wrong but it seems that those with a disposable income sufficient to afford costly brass engines sometimes talk of the subject as if it’s sort of common place or “routine” for them. But to many hobbyists, buying expensive brass engines is financially out of reach, just like owning a luxury car may be out of reach. By world standards, definitely in the luxury category.
Plus there was a feeling that buying that first brass locomotive was like pledging a fraternity or smoking and drinking – your passage from boy to man.
Or passage from lower disposable income to higher disposable income - for some when they can start buying expensive brass engines - they have “arrived”. Much of my life I’ve viewed brass locomotives as being out-of-reach to me f
John,
You just don’t get it.
Riogrande and I disagree on a lot of stuff, but on this I am right with him.
When I was young I could not afford brass. OR, I would not choose to afford brass at the expense of other things.
I refuse to live like you, selling off personal possessions when money gets tight.
I have NEVER done that in my life, and I have not always had the kind of money I have now. I raised three kids in a row house on one income with just two or three paychecks between me and broke.
But I never had to sell my trains to pay the electric bill, or even to send the girls to dance class. I still have virtually every model train I have ever bought, and many that were part of what my father gave me as a child.
Today, and for the last 25 or more years, I have done well, I live well.
I could “choose” to afford at least some brass, but it simply is not important to my modeling goals.
Actually, if I had what I have spent on 140 “plastic” locos in the last 25 years, I could buy a dozen, or two, maybe even 3 dozen, of the “finest brass”. But that would not satisfy my modeling goals at all.
I don’t have any “real” art hanging on my walls either…
I drive moderately expensive late model cars that are paid for. I live in a nice single home in a rural area on two acres that is paid for.
If I had more money I would not buy more expensive cars, and I would not buy a more expensive house.
And I’m not paying $1,000 or more for a model train locomotive. In fact I would have to think long and hard to spend much more than $300 or $400 which is about the most I have ever spent on a single loco.
And amazingly, all my $100, and $200, and a few $300 locomotives run great, and look great for their intended purposes on my model layout.
I’m a big student of deminishing return theory and will often settle for 85% performance when it o
Sheldon–
You absolutely don’t have a clue about me, and NO I don’t just sell stuff off when money is tight. I on a few occasions sold trains to help with things we wanted, like the travel baseball expenses that actually got my kid to college AND earned him college scholarships. For what he wants to do, it was money well spent.
Other times I sell trains to buy trains. I sell them when they can’t take my curves without completely dismantling and rebuilding my layout, which would cost $1000’s to do, and would be foolish when we are moving in a few years. You can’t always know before you buy what will work or not. I even consult the PFM catalogs for minimum radius, but that doesn’t hold for Balboa or other competitors’ models of that time period. It is NOT possible to test run everything. Sometimes I make a purchase mistake, so sue me. Maybe you are just so perfect that you never made a purchase mistake. I get rid of mine and replace them.
I thought this hobby was about continual learning, not belittling others. I’ve been blessed to get to know a couple guys 30 years older than me who have taught me an awful lot; even during this “lockdown”, I’ve had the opportunity to learn stuff.
Also, my last 8 brass purchases have been WELL under $1000, as I stated CLEARLY above, actually as low as $450, which is very competitive with ANYTHING you can buy in steam now, plastic, diecast, hybrid, MTH, what have you. Athearn Genesis challengers are in the $400 street price range, and oh btw, my younger son has one of those too.
You have made your sentiments CLEAR that you don’t like brass. So, that being the case, why are you still reading this thread???
Others of us clearly believe that brass offers a certain realism you just can’t get with molded/painted plastic. The paint finish just looks different on metal, and properly done, more realistic, at least to som
John,
I don’t “dislike” brass, I just don’t need it for my purposes. I do have two older brass USRA Pacifics…they run nice and look nice, even with their Bachmann long haul tenders and their plastic Athearn Delta trailing trucks.
And the Scalecoat paint on the tender does not look any different than the Scalecoat paint on the locomotive - I painted both…
You are right, I will never get the buying stuff and then selling it off.
In 50 years I have made three or four purchase mistakes, or changed my mind. So that’s about how many locos I have sold off in that time.
Info on what curves equipment will handle is pretty common these days, why would you buy something that won’t run on your layout? Or, with older stuff like you mention, simple rules about engine wheelbase usually work.
My last layout, and my next one, has 36" minimum mainline curves. And guess what, I don’t buy steam locomotive models, brass or plastic, with rigid driver wheelbases above 21 scale feet. Because I want them all to run good and look good while doing so.
I hope for your sake, one day you figure out what you really like…and keep it for more than a year…
And when I find a good deal on a Western Maryland Pacific, or a couple of B&O B-18’s, I might just snatch them up.
That’s the only brass I really have any need for on my layout.
Do you weather any of those beautiful brass models?
Sheldon
The one painter, now in his 70’s and “semi-retired” insists on weathering everything just a little bit. He is very subtle with that, and his work looks amazing (all air brushed, no chalks). However, I put a gorgeous diesel he did for me next to a new steam engine, and that did it. I was hooked on steam again. It wasn’t his fault at all. The diesel engine sold immediately when I consigned it.
The other painter, now retired from pro painting, 28 years older than me and thinning his personal collection before his expiration date comes up, knows his son doesn’t like brass and will only get pennies on the dollar for it. I am buying what I can from him, that I want or can use. He is regearing, remotoring, and painting engines acquired over a lifetime, and selling them while he can get what they are actually worth, and he even gives some of the money to charity. He specifically has done some models just for me, but pity I couldn’t run all of them. That painter will not weather anything, on the grounds that after all the work he has done to make the model look nice, he will not reduce it’s value with weathering. He also insists on prototypically correct painting and lettering–he follows actual railroad practice for the railroads in question, refusing to deviate from their painting practices.
I have learned much from some of these people, even about what not to do, and how to safely remove finger oil from models so that it doesn’t harm the paint and decals (use naptha–it won’t hurt Scalecoat 1 paint on brass).
So I have a lot of respect for them.
Bob Hunter was an amazing painter, a member of the Southern Railway steam program, who actually crewed those trips. He knew how to weather steam…but my one friend died and the Bob Hunter models he had were gone…who knows where, or I would have bought them, if I could.
One other thought John,
Just like Kevin, I may find my self interested in vintage brass at some point since I have no plans to pay $600 or more for locos with sound decoders and “smoke” that I would remove.
In which case, I too will be very happy if the price of vintage brass stays depressed…
But other than the pieces I mentioned above, my roster is not really in need of any more locos.
Sheldon