Will brass prices return to 1997 levels? Opinions?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
41

It sounds like you were there as a dealer, I was a participant.

I do not want to digress this thread any further, so please read what I write below just for what it is…

Most conventions I attend are Wargaming, Cosplay, or “Comiconish” in nature. These are always a blast, people are having a ton of fun, and any poor outsider that mistakenly wanders in will quickly be recruited to become one of the group. He will get a Mario Hat on his head, dice in one hand, a beer in the other, and the next thing he knows is he is commanding the Republican Guard in the Battle of Waterloo.

When I attended Brass Expo, I was an attendee, but I was treated very much like an outsider. I would have thought I should have been the Belle Of The Ball.

I had just started buying brass, I had always wanted brass, and I was enthusiastic about being there. My career was on a rocket-trajectory, and I had plenty of diposable income to spend on my new treasures.

When people found out I only had three brass locomotives, five cabooses, and a couple of covered hopper cars I was treated like a tenth grade dropout at a Mensa gathering.

The way non-convention people at the hotel were shunned away when they showed curiosity was a shame in itself.

The dealers did not want to talk to me, and other attendees dismissed me entirely.

I do not think I met you there. You have always been a bit of an heroic character to me, so I believe I would have been excited if I saw you.

Anyway… it was a wasted trip and a bad experience for me.

-Kevin

42

I too am very much a “light weathering” kind of guy. I am very much into the theory that our models are small and therefor always viewed from “afar”. So things like weathering should be done to reflect how things would look from 200 or 300 feet away in real life.

Even the rusty crap that CSX runs near my house these days looks pretty clean and good from 300 feet away.

Sheldon

43

Sheldon–

There are actually quite a number of fine older brass models that are only worth $195 to $250 now. Some have good gearboxes, though little noisy, and may or may not have open frame motors. The dealers think nobody wants them, and are sitting on some of them. Knowing what I know now, I would buy some of them and get them painted.

When I worked for a certain diecast train company, they ran the engines with open frame motors for 50 hours on the store layout to break them in before returning them to a customer (assuming the customer made any good faith attempt to assemble the kit, the company would finish the model for them, and return it running very well).

I have seen older brass engines with open frame motors that the model ran great and even quietly. I would have no problem buying one of them again if I saw one. There’s models I want that are now dirt cheap, but either they were used up and thrown away in the last 50 years, or they are lingering in inventory somewhere not being listed for sale (as some are privately telling me).

44

I have a photographer friend who is always trying to photograph the old equipment before it’s scrapped, venturing in past years to the Altoona deadlines and dragging me along to some of those places.

Even trashed out engines still sometimes retain a shine to the paint finish, at least in the non-rusty areas.

Most modelers way overdo the weathering especially to dead flat, which you seldom see in real life.

I agree it should always be subtle.

Bob Hunter was amazing at it.

Howard Zane uses a powdered graphite weathering technique that is also pretty subtle and captures the look of steam power from the era when they washed and rubbed down engines with oily cotton waste (ie well before the end of steam when nothing was clean).

John

45

As a Scalecoat user, I clearcoat my already glossy models with a mix of their clear flat and clear gloss to get a satin or semigloss finish, then just add some “dirt” lightly with the airbrush.

Yes real trains are painted with gloss paint, models should reflect that to some degree in most cases.

Sheldon

46

Kevin–

I’m very sorry to read of your experience at that particular Expo.

For the record I currently only have two brass steam engines on hand (others out for sale). My 13 year old son also has two big non-brass challengers. I understand the need or desire of some to be in both worlds. In my case, I’m trying to encourage one boy to still love trains. Whatever that takes. With freight cars, he calls the shots, and if he doesn’t like it, it’s gone.

It’s not about how many you have. My interest would be more what it is that you have? And do you love it?

One of my engines is specially customized to represent GN F-8 2-8-0 #1215 late in its career. It is one of only 2 models. The painter guy has the other one, which also still has PFM sound in it. They have the tender from a GN L-1 articulated, which is neat, and footboard pilot. Oh, and he might have changed a pipe run on the engine from standard Tenshodo as built. It also has a can motor and 48:1 gearbox, because it was built to run really slow. It can do my curves, and it is staying.

I would never look down on somebody for having one model. There are some people who only have a couple models but they might be amazing DM&IR yellowstones or Northern Pacific Z-5 yellowstones or what have you.

It’s your railroad. Some people have switching module layouts with many turnouts and all kinds of switching possibilities and only need a couple engines. My next (downsized) layout, after kids are gone, will likely be a point-to-point in the next house. I won’t need the big continuous run anymore. I will still want to play with choo choos, but also desire to leave the wife something that can be easily removed and liquidated when that time comes and I am gone.

Then there’s a big time collector in Germany who just did this amazing rebuild of a Precision Scale N&W Z1b 2-6-6-2 all himself, fi

47

[quote user=“PRR8259”]

Kevin–

I’m very sorry to read of your experience at that particular Expo.

For the record I currently only have two brass steam engines on hand (others out for sale). My 13 year old son also has two big non-brass challengers. I understand the need or desire of some to be in both worlds. In my case, I’m trying to encourage one boy to still love trains. Whatever that takes. With freight cars, he calls the shots, and if he doesn’t like it, it’s gone.

It’s not about how many you have. My interest would be more what it is that you have? And do you love it?

One of my engines is specially customized to represent GN F-8 2-8-0 #1215 late in its career. It is one of only 2 models. The painter guy has the other one, which also still has PFM sound in it. They have the tender from a GN L-1 articulated, which is neat, and footboard pilot. Oh, and he might have changed a pipe run on the engine from standard Tenshodo as built. It also has a can motor and 48:1 gearbox, because it was built to run really slow. It can do my curves, and it is staying.

I would never look down on somebody for having one model. There are some people who only have a couple models but they might be amazing DM&IR yellowstones or Northern Pacific Z-5 yellowstones or what have you.

It’s your railroad. Some people have switching module layouts with many turnouts and all kinds of switching possibilities and only need a couple engines. My next (downsized) layout, after kids are gone, will likely be a point-to-point in the next house. I won’t need the big continuous run anymore. I will still want to play with choo choos, but also desire to leave the wife something that can be easily removed and liquidated when that time comes and I am gone.

Then there’s a big time collector in Germany who just did this amazing rebuild of a Precision

48

Yes, I built a modest layout that is designed to show off the trains. Passing sidings are along the wall to not block the view of trains from the front. All track is Kato, now, with the factory superelevated curved track and superelevated transition sections used where I could get them and fit them. All turnouts are Kato #6. I just ripped out the Peco turnouts (along with Walthers/Shinohara and Atlas track) because Peco cheated on the frog angle to 12-degrees, which is sharper than #5 and derails some steam power. Yes for me it is all about the trains themselves, and even the individual models.

The scenery is just there to give a flavor of open spaces, mostly desert.

I’m minimalist on scenery–I’m trying to capture the immensity of railroading with a long mainline run through rural western America.

Yes, again, it’s all about the trains themselves (and not taking more of the basement than my wife wanted to allow at the time).

My son wants to run one big train with a Challenger (or future Big Boy) and let it roll. He wants 70 car trains (we are at 50+ now and way beyond siding capacity). I run the little brass engines when he’s not around.

John

49

The real reason I bought brass in the past was the detail, now I can get it in plastic for much cheaper. Wanted some hoppers and was able to buy MTH ones for around $15, the brass ones were $70 plus and not painted.

50

Understood, and that is great when you can do that.

I’m actually going the other way and considering buying some brass freight cars, partly because I’m not happy with the relative fragility of some of the plastic ones.

Also many people will buy a brass caboose to get the one that is correct for their particular railroad, and yet some of those people would not buy a brass loco.

John

51

That’s the kind of atmosphere model train shows and clubs should be trying to create to get people into the hobby rather than grumpy old men who act like you’re actually inconveniencing them by coming to buy stuff they’re selling and snobs who shun people or talk down to them for asking questions. If that’s what a brass model convention is like I’m glad I’ve avoided them all these years.

52

That has been my experience at hobby shops, I see no need to suport them.

53

It may be my personality, or how I was raised, or my borderline OCD, or my introvertedness, but I have never had a problem with fragile models, they are after all, 1/87th scale models.

I will take the fragile details of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto 2000 model any day over the clunky oversized cast metal details on some MTH models…

But that’s just me.

Sheldon

54

I was at the November, 2019, Brass Expo held near Lancaster, PA, as was Howard, and Adam Pomeranz, and I can assure you the people that were actually there were friendly to the guests attending the show. I heard and saw no evidence of anybody “talking down” to anybody else. However, it was snowing and attendance could have been better than it was. That can always happen.

My friend Sean and I, and my son Johnny, had a good time, and were only limited by our available funds at the time. There were things I wanted to buy, and there were models changing hands.

I would not let a past negative experience dissuade me from attending. In the past I learned a lot at those shows. I was able to meet some of the people who actually assemble the research packages needed to build these wonderful models (Jim Walsh) and hear some of their stories.

John

55

Some of the MTH stuff has close to scale rabs ect. now. I have hoppers and one diesel from them, fine details, don’t know about their early stuff.

56

I’m talking about stuff like steam loco running boards cast onto a metal boiler that are a scale foot thick.

From what I have seen their rolling stock looks fine.

Their diesels seem just OK, MTH and Broadway seem to go for handling durability over exact scale fineness in many cases on locomotives.

For that kind of money I want a bette

57

Sheldon–

If diecasting a boiler, and not using lead (which flows easier and better fills the molds than zinc does), since model companies tried to go for safety, by removing the lead, the running boards have to be thicker than scale. On the few Bowser locos that had “thinner looking” running boards, they were separately applied brass parts. Where the running boards are cast on, they are usually thicker.

It’s true with BLI as well as MTH, as well as others. Maybe MTH errs on the side of slightly thicker–but some of their engines also came from Lionel, and as such the boilers were designed by Lionel (4-6-6-4) and those fat running boards are NOT MTH’s design at all.

BLI Y-6B 2-8-8-2: nice engine, I’ve owned two, also fat cast-on running boards.

John

58

To address the OP question posed by Howard Zane:

I’ve been brass shopping hard and comparing prices of what is actually available to be purchased.

Right now, it appears that one could answer “it depends”.

There are a lot of lesser valued or lesser priced brass models available for sale in the marketplace. However, they may require regearing, remotoring and a paint job, plus many folks would want DCC. Till all that work is completed nowadays, that would easily add $500 or more to the price of any of them, and I can see that some buyers won’t want to buy a $195 or $250 engine to then put $500 more into it. So that may be why some of them don’t sell or rather are lingering in online website inventories.

At the other end of the spectrum there are many $1000 and up models that seem to be actually in very short supply. Some of them sell literally as soon as they get listed, within hours. People over on other forums are actually making statements like there is nothing available that they want to buy. That may reflect the realization that the lesser priced models may require “too much work” or “too much investment” to upgrade to what is expected today.

So if the model falls into the “later” or “better” group and is heavily detailed, well, yes it seems they are increasing in value. This still seems to include some of the more scarce Crown models.

Other Crown models that are perceived as “very common” have dropped in value recently.

John

59

Yes, and so I would rather have closer to scale size plastic applied running boards, like my Bachmann Spectrum 4-8-2’s and 2-10-2’s which have cast metal boilers.

Or, plastic boilers with finer scale details and a metal drive and weights like many of my other locomotives.

And I renew my opinion that Scalecoat paint looks the same on any surface, and I would submit that many people, be they brass fans or not, have never considered whether or not details are actually to scale or are oversized.

You may not think the factory finishes on many plastic models are realistic, or as good looking as the finishes on many brass models. And you may be right.

That is a separate issue from actual “detail level”.

Decades ago there was a widely held view that if fine details were too oversized they might be better left off the model depending on their visual importance.

John, I’m not anti brass, I’m just not pro brass over other construction methods.

Again, I have no problem with fragile models. I don’t handle my models unne

60

And to offer a few thoughts here.

Everything you just said is likely true and valid.

But you are talking about a group of modelers/consumers that are a special sub group in this hobby.

I don’t “pay” anyone to work on or paint my model trains, I don’t k