I have done some informal study on passenger entrainments between Chicago and Miami, and the older routes that were more direct than CHI-WAS-MIA. It seems that CSX has decent trackage along the route CHI-Evansville-Nashville-Birmingham or Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville and FEC from JAX to MIA. Using the success of frequency versus one or two long daily trains, use a locomotive, coach, coach/lounge, sleeper and autorack (5 cars) four times a day each way, and start passenger service. No need to speed, just mix in with CSX/FEC traffic and go 50mph. Possibly a bilevel self propelled car with some trailers would work - and shorten the entire consist to a bi level RDC/coach, sleeper/lounge and autorack. The freight road needs to be your business partner, not enemy. The current time enroute is 57 hours versus what could be 33 hours on the new route, even at slower speeds - an entire day of travel saved. What do all of you think?
You have a couple of problems. First, I think ATK has a legal monopoly on passenger rail in the US at least on companies that joined ATK in the first place. Others on this board dispute that.
Second, if you want the host railroad(s) to be your partner, expect to pay them about the same gross revenue as a freight train. That will drive your unit cost for the short trains you contemplate into the stratosphere. ATK does not have this problem as they pay next to nothing for their train slots.
Mac McCulloch
Who do you foresee as potential riders?
I don’t think anyone on a business trip would want to take the train instead of flying.
Retired people who have moved to Florida and have children/grandchildren living up north and traveling back and forth for short visits, or the children/grandchildren visiting Florida?
Retired people wanting to get to Florida to move into their retirement home on a one-way trip?
Perhaps an occasional family outing to Disney World or other Florida attractions?
I don’t really see enough interest to justify the cost.
And as already pointed out by PNWRMNM, Amtrak has exclusive rights for passenger rail service in the U.S. and they would probably not allow competition.
The Auto-Train Corp. ran service from Dec 1971 to April 1981. It attempted to expand from the original Lorton to Sanford route with a 2nd train from Louisville to Sanford. The failure of that route along with high crew costs and several accidents forced it into bankruptcy. So it could be done as there is a legal precedent for private services. However, past experience on that route was pretty dismal.
If the service could be improved over what it was in the 1970’s, with a more northern terminal, maybe it could work. After all, the Amtrak Auto Train in the east has a good market. The problem with the midwest route in the 70’s was the terrible route performance, not a lack of folks wanting to head south with their cars.
There might be a market for a Chicago-Florida service at certain times of the year. For example "snowbirds’ from the Midwest who wish to travel to their homes in Florida in lte November, and returning north in late March or early April. But other than that I don’t see such a market.
The concept of a self propelled rail diesel car might not work because it migt not have enough power to tow unpowered trailers; in any event such acar could be developed, but who will pay for it? Moreover would a service with a passenger car or two hauling a few trailers be profitable?
There are many retired people who spend summers up north and winters in Florida. Twice a year they need to move their selves and car(s) back and forth. My parents did this for over 25 years on the eastern AutoTrain. Perhaps in the early 70s, mid-westerners were still more used to car travel. Maybe it would be worth a try now. Louisville was a good collection point for S.Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and places in between.
Someone may want to correct me, but I believe Amtrak’s lock on intercity passenger rail service has been modified, i.e. up to two of the existing routes can be bid on by an alternative operator. No one has stepped up for good reason. They can make any money in the passenger rail business.
The fact that Auto-Train started after Amtrak seems to show that Amtrak does not have a lock on passenger services and never has.
IIRC, Auto Train’s agreement with SCL was written before Amtrak - They just did not start the service until later. Since SCL controlled L&N, Auto Train was able to expand into the Midwest market. ’
Jim
It’s probably a good market to be in. I think the biggest problems in your analysis are the train speed on the route and finding slots to run your trains.
In order to “fit in” with the freight traffic, you’d have to keep pace with the intermodal trains on the route. Looks like CSX has 48 hour cut-off to availability for Chicago to Jacksonville, so transit time is roughly 44 hours. Add in another 9-10 hours to get to Miami.
Pieces of the route are pretty crowded - it would be hard to find slots to run the trains and variability in performance would likely be pretty high.
You are right. The agreement with SCL and RF&P was made in 1969. But reading over the Rail Passenger Act of 1971, raises questions.
“No railroad or any other person may, without the consent of the
Corporation, conduct intercity rail passenger service over any route
over which the Corporation is performing scheduled intercity rail
passenger service pursuant to a contract under this section.”
So that sounds as though other operators could provide services on other routes without Amtrak’s consent and in any case could operate additional services on Amtrak routes with consent.
Good Question. A better question might be, “Would the market for people travelling between Chicagoland and Miami support an Autotrain operation?”
Another question. Why would you name Miami as the Florida destination?" Many Midwesterners enjoy the West Coast of Florida, and by stopping only at Miami, such a journey could tack hours of additional driving onto the journey. Sanford, the Florida destination of Autotrain, isn’t such a hot spot, scenery-wise, but strategically, it’s location is superb: one can drive to east and west coast destinations with equal facility, plus it’s practically next door to the made-for-tourista attractions of Orlando.
The driving time for my across-the-street neighbor (I live near Ft. Myers, FL) to her Kalamazoo, MI home is something like 22 hours, non-stop. A pair of tag-team drivers can beat a 33-hour train trip and be relaxing over beer at a cheesy Ft. Myers Beach bar while trainriders are still embarked. To me, this would imply a need to shorten travel time., so train speed does matter.
Given the above, do I think the service as you’ve defined it could “fly” (commercially speaking, pardon the pun)? I have my doubts…
Cheers
Your idea is fascinating. It is an easy and convenient alternative to a long driving trip.
Long driving trips are certainly doable. However, they are not fun. They are confining at best and mean you have to search for a motel at night. And there is always the risk of a breakdown on the road. Even a flat tire can be difficult when you’re many miles from home.
Precisely because automobiles are so popular many people drive over certain long routes such as Chicago to Florida. If they need their car on both ends of the route they can’t fly.
I cannot comment on the economics of the idea. However, an auto train between Chicago and Florida would certainly fill a real need and be a real service to the society.
I would support it, but I doubt CSX & FEC would…Have you done any calculations to determine what they would make from the venture?
Just a thought. No research done. Perhaps a private RR could make a profit just shipping automobiles on a regular schedule. People could then move themselves via train or air and still have their car at the other end.
You are missing an important reason why Louisville was chosen. Ohio is or was the biggest source of Florida bound people. I believe the additional travel to Chicago would not allow sufficient turnaround time neccesitating at least one more set of equipment to maintain daily service
There are car carriers (trucks) that do this now. It would take a large volume of personal vehicles, I think, to make it profitable for a rail operation.
Believe it or not there are some Texans who go to Florida for the winter. How anyone can leave our wonderful state for more than a week or so is beyond me.
I wasn’t thinking a train, just a single auto carrier car handled like any other train car.
Amtrak should consider a CHICAGO to MIAMI route via ATLANTA for a regular passenger train similar to the trains that ran on L&N (CSX) and Southern Railway (NS) before AMTRAK DAY on May 1.1971.