More from Nate with very little editing:
Nate also sent a view of the 99th Stereet Shop with a work motor not elsewhere in my collection. Some editing was done.
Hello Dave
Nate actually sends these out to a group of us - me and you included - on a group email list. I have had these 2 original Greenwich St 9AV EL shots for decades already – the one with the " Y " junction is a copy scan of the exact image on page 72 of the William Fullerton Reeves Book. The upper one I also have for decades - it also was seen in / from another published NYC transit related book. regards - Joe F
Hello Dave
Nate sent his copy, of this photo, out to everyone on the email list. I also have had my own copy of this photo for very many years already - My father - after being a station agennt and later station master (in charge of his and the opposite station house agent’s location) worked in the accounting offices above the El repair shops in the late 1930’s and used that stairway at left of shops-offices building to get there from the street level at E.98th St (left) - view is west towards Lexington Ave from the El mainline. Here is my long ago much larger copy of that photo (click photo for larger image) BELOW: Regards - Joe F
Thanks Two very positive contributions to this thread. I’ll proceed to do the samr ophoto-straightening editing I did to Nate’s copy, since the mainline elevated tracks were not curved, as you know. This additionsal editing is absolutely not meant in any way as a criticism of your work, which can be.seen to be "state-of-the-art in other ways. And we can all learn from each other.
Hello Dave
Yes, I didn’t notice the very very slight curvature of the one rail at very bottom track on the photo. That could have been the result of using a wide angle lens on the camera. Depending upon film format size (35MM or larger film). I have experienced that situation to a very minor degree at times when I had to use a wide angle lens to capture more of a scene than the normal 50mm lens would allow - in cases where I was restricted (wall, fence, river edge, heh) in moving further back phyically to capture the scene without a wide angle assistance.
I have no issue with the “straightening” process at all ! Regards - Joe F
I hope to post the straightened rails this evening, with no other changes in an excellent photo. The details are far better thsan in the photo I posted easrlier, psrticularly the two lighting towers. The distantb one was also IRT. The shop included fascilities between Madison and Park Avenues, with the only IRT grade crossing, a single non-pwered track, across Madison Avenue. At one time it crossed two conduit streetca tracks!
All this (except the streetcar tracks) is in previously posted pictures on the 3rd Avenyue Elevate4d thread.
Hello Dave
GOOD JOB on the straightening of lower rails on my larger copy version of the E.99St Yards photo — even tho I can see where you took the straight sections of rail and wood guard timber at left side of photo, (BEFORE the curving defects starts) and copy-replicated it as repeated overlays over the curved sections working incrementally a few times left to right ! . A standard edit-technique used commonly. ! My program can also use the “retouch” mode which will erase the shadow perimeter lines, spots, defects, of each one of these patches including the repeated recognizable details replicated by the first rectangular small patchwork panel created. That which will give a seamless end result to the “repair” with no traces ! . Otherwise - very GOOD job you did of lower track rail and some of the planking mild straightening !
Regards - Joe F
Note correction to previous post. The other pix of the shop and the Mad. Av. crossing are on (obviously!) the newer 3rd Av. thread. Apologies.
A 99th Street Shop photo on this thread can be justified by that shop handling repairs for the entire Manhattan Elevated system, incliuding the West-side elevateds. However, I will duplicate the photo on one of the 3rd Avenue threads.
The photographer sent this important photo, who sent it to me, for maximum distribution. A two-car Polo-Ground (155th st. & 8th Ave. - 167th St. & Jerome Avenu) shuttle of Gibbs cars, the original steel subway cars. To clear the lower side walls of the tunnel under 162nd Street betweem the Sedgewick Avne and Jerome & Anderson Avenue stations. the regular subway-type 3rd-rail shoes were cut back and could omly contact the higher and further-in open elevated-type 3rd rail. The photo is at the southbound 167th St., taken from the northbound platform.
The Shuttle was the last remnent of the 9th Avenue Elevated.
Didn’t know the third rail was different. How much different? Did the Third Ave elevated in the Bronx keep its old-style third rail as long as it ran?
The Gibbs cars seem to have a normal coach car window pattern. Did they also have a typical railway 2-2 seating pattern?
He said they were the original subway cars. IRT cars have never had any face-forward side-by-side seating, have they?
IRT subway cars, including compositers moved to elevated-train service in 1915:
Always longitudinal after center doors installed.
Elevated-train cars, except Composites:
16 paired back-to-back, center of car, rest longitudinal
Hello Dave
ONLY the IRT Composite (ex 1904 subway) cars moved to Manhattan Division Elevated service – but only on the 2nd and 3rd Avenue (east side) Manhattan El’s and on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL As well as in rush hourt service from the 2nd Ave (and later 3rd Ave EL from Manhattan to Bronx via the West Farms (lower White Plains Road line’s original 1903 built EL) from the 3rd Ave EL - via it’s upper express level of its E. 143rd St Station onto the Bergen St. connection to operate to and return from the Freeman Street Station.
Steel IRT subway cars ran on Bronx EXTENSION EL"s built solely for and to connect with the IRT Subway lines from Manhattan.
Steel IRT Subway cars never ran on thhe Manhattan 3rd Ave El Lines (2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th Ave EL’s) as they were too heavy for the 1878-1880’s built El structures. The ONLY time steel subway cars ran in passenger service of the 3rd Ave El was ONLY on its saved Bronx remnant, operated from May 12, 1955 thru its service end April 30, 1973. Steel cars replaced the last groups of operating wooden cars (IRT MUDC"s and ex-BMT Q Types) on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL - Sept. 16, 1956
regards - Joe
Hello timz
The first IRT Subway cars (1903-4 Composites) and the 1904-5 steel GIBBS cars before center doors were added, had IRT Manhattan El car style seating — just like this photo ABOVE inside an IRT Composite wooden subway Car as new in 1903
When the center doors were added to the Composites and the Gibbs cars – thhe center cross seats were removed.
Regards - Joe F
The GIBBS cars AFTER they had center door openings cut into their bodies around 1910, and center doors installed, did not have normal window patterns.
The center doors, due to the side walls steel framing, were installed slightly closer to one end of the car – meaning both doors were directly OPPOSITE each other as is normal, and both were about a foot or so closer to one end - the same end- of the car body. That caused an unusal window pattern. Note the single small window on closest side of the center door, and the two small windows - where the door pocket was, on the opposite side of the car. The cars had Manhattan El type seating when new in 1904 – which had cross seats in the area where the doors were later installed. At that time the center cross seats were removed where the center doors would be located.
The photo above shows a 2 car train for Polo Ground Shuttle Service – both being GIBBS Hi-V “battleship” Pilot cars with all manually controlled (by mechanical levers) doors. Pilot cars had a motorman indication box and light in the cab – to inform motormen that all doors on the MUDC Hi-V cars in thhe train - were closed. The Manual Door “Pilot” cars were used as either the front car, or / and / rear car of the train with MUDC converted cars coupled between them.
The view is looking south to a train on the northbound track of the IRT Jerome Ave El at the E. 167th Street uptown station platform. Circa 1950 / 51 ------ Regards - Joe F
Hello Timz
The original 3rd rail as installed upon electrification, on the Manhattan EL lines (as well as on Chicago EL Lines) was a closer to the track, higher UNCOVERED 3rd rail. “Drop Sled” 3rd rail gravity-contact shoes rode directly above and along the uncovered head of the EL type 3rd rail. Originally there was a wooden safety protection board bolted to each side of that 3rd rail — those boards being about two inches higher than the rail head of the 3rd rail. This protected both sides of the 3rd rail from trackworkers and employees on the tracks. This was the installation of 1900-02.
The first IRT Subway opened in Oct. 1904 decided on a similar 3rd rail system, but their rail was a bit LOWER to the ties and further from the track, and has a top cover board. The first NY (and all do today) subway cars had a special “paddle” type sprung 3rd rail shoe which rode on top of the rail head but under the top protective wooden cover.
Because Manhattan El’s (2nd, 3rd, 6th & 9th Ave Lines) EL structures (built between 1870 and 1880’s) were quite more lightly built than later (post 1900) heavier EL structures, STEEL subway cars were banned from the Manhattan El’s in any revenue loaded services. They could be dead towed to Manhattan El repair shops (which was done) - by an El car or an El work motor-flat – but that was it.
Therefore, the Manhattan El’s RETAINED the high protecting boards, but by 1910 removed the one board facing the track. thus leaving the remaining board facing the adjacent catwalks. That was called a safety back board. THE REASON? FIRST - it was found that the channel created along the 3rd rail itself by the two boards, allowed snow and ice to pack into that channel and prevent 3rd rail shoe contact. SECOND - Because that higher than rail head back board would PREVENT subway paddle shoes to ride on and contact the Manhattan EL type 3rd rai