I’m trying to bash Floridians, but as a former resident, I think I can say long term infrastructure planning has not been a trademark. Geographically a HSR would seem…I’m not a geologist nor an enginneer…a good choice for Florida based on topography, due to the lack of natural barriers such as grades to overcome or go around and the relative proximity of population centers. However, would organic ridership between the centers justify such a project. Florida’s cities, like those in Texas, have sprawled, so taking a train from business center to business center, like can be achieved on the NEC is harder, which is how the NEC makes it’s money. Because, unless the HSR can be linked to a greater overall system, it will cut out the lucrative tourist market. I don’t want to have to change modes if I can avoid it. There has to be a time savings & convienience factor like the NEC can provide to get folks from point A to point B. If they still have to drive to the train station, to ride then drive again or fly from there, what’s the point. Orlando already has a major airport, so why not fly to Orlando and rent a car to go to Disney?
Hey Dan
How much you wanna bet Kalifoonia will get a HSR long before Florida even reconsiders thiers.
I with you on that one…Now if we can get Ahnold to put the three strikes lifers that won’t be parolled by Prop 66 to work a diggin’. Terrain not withstanding, CA has the organic ridership and more geographically centered business areas creating natural corridors.
I live in Florida.
A much cheaper and more practical solution:
Up until the late 60s Florida had excellent passenger service from the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad. The tracks, which still exist (though single track), ran into all of Florida’s major cities.
I don’t see why a state or federal funded agreement couldn’t be worked out with CSX to:
[1] Upgrade the tracks to Class 5 (90+ mph) standards.
[2] Have an agency like Tri-Rail or Amtrak, provide intra-state service.
Hasn’t something similar happened with NS recently in a northern state where they’re getting government grants for track upgrades to get commuter rail on the move?
Also has it not been successful in California?
In Florida, Interstates I-4, I-75, and I-95 are nightmare highways to cruise on. While bullet trains can run at close to 200 mph, the costs are prohibitive. But potential passengers would likely be willing to travel on conventional trains that can hit speeds of 90 to 100mph, which in a state the size of Florida, still means that trains would be safer, faster, and more comfortable than buses and more convenient than a commuter airline.
Funny thing is that in the 1950s Florida had a much smaller population. Today’s population is double or triple of that time period but passenger rail service is less than 1/4 of what it was back then!
Incremental improvements need not stop at the level of the Virginia partnership. They can continue to the level of the NE Corridor and even further, building ridership as the work progresses. The Downeaster Portland Boston service seems to be doing all right despite an inconvenient connection with the rest of the Amtrak system and a 70mph top speed. If 10% of the highway traffic can be put on the rails, the remaining drivers will consider the reduction in congestion worthwhiile and support further expenditures, I would hope.
As a former resident of Maine also, I’d like to congratulate Amtrak on making rail service successful, making Maine a more attractive and reasonable homestead opportunity for the beloved Bostonians, who are now inflicting their brand of social reform on Maine. [V]
And what’s bad is that it won’t be until the point that people are paying that much for gas that they’ll want it, and then it will take a good 20 years for studies, planning, building/upgrades, rolling stock, etc. etc. for everything to get done. It’s ashame things like this can’t get a good start now so that these services will be there when America is really going to need them. Otherwise it’ll be too late.
Yeah Old Timer’s right, by the way the contract would have been design and buildby Fluor-Bombardier. Talk about cost overuns!!! Orlando to Tampa just needed something like the Cal
I think it is significant to understand who was against HSR and also understand their transparent reasons for being against it…
Two things that were deceptive in the politicising of the measure…To vote IN FAVOR of HSR you had to vote AGAINST the question. Secondly, those against HSR hid their true identitys behind a PAC name…while the above deciets are fully legal they are also fully deceptive. Much too deceptive for the average voter to decipher the real politics behind the situation.
Old Timer has hit upon the curse of high speed passenger rail - an inadequate assessment of ridership. Because the plan wasn’t well thought out it was readily open to attack. I agree with all of those who feel high speed rail between Miami - Orlando-Tampa is needed, but true high speed rail passenger service involves average speeds of at least 150 mph.
AntonioFP45 and others have hit on the solution.
If someone would come up with a proposal for a 90-100MPH system that could use some existing right of way, and be honest with the populace that it was going to require big local, state and federal bucks, and that it was never going to be profitable but was needed, I’d vote for it, and I think a lot of others would, too.
But we were asked to bankroll a high-rolling millionaire’s pipe dream, and it was not unexpected that, once the voters realized what was up, they’d flush it.
BTW, for those who complain about the No vote to pass it and Yes vote to kill it as being some underhanded political machinations, turn your sights elsewhere.
Constitutional amendments in Florida must be passed by a “Yes” vote. Don’t ask me why, but that’s the reason.
Old Timer
Re: Highest point in Florida. I mentioned in above post I understood Clermont was the highest point in Florida…but as pointed out, I was wrong. It is the point in the panhandle at 325’. Now I’m wondering what Clermont used to mention as being the highest point…Perhaps the highest physical point really is at the tip of the Citrus Tower in the Clermont location…
…I agree with Old Timer about updating some major route corridors with now existing rail routes to roughly 100 mph operation…would most likely be very useful and appropriate to move people and at a cost more easily doable. But trying to run 100 mph passenger trains intermixed with existing freight operations simply should be avoided in my opinion but perhaps could be overcome by cost and useful planning.
Modelcar, I believe the statistic is that Clermont is the highest point in the Florida PENINSULA. (That being the part of the state most people think of)
Good points Modelcar but it can be done.
DOUBLE TRACK the mainline again, but only in the higher density area! Still cheaper than the bullet train, but yes the costs would be in the millions.
Up unitl the late 1970s, a lot of the major mainline track going through the major Florida ciites was double tracked.
And remember, there were a lot more trains running in Florida back then than today! Freight and passenger operations co-existed and yet the passenger trains still ran at
80 m.p.h on stretches and managed to maintain their schedules.
10-4!
The freight trains that were running in the 40’s-50’s and 60’s when freight and passenger shared the tracks are not the freight trains that are being operated on todays railorads… In the days gone by a ‘Mile Long’ freight train was considered HUGE and an operational rarity. In todays freight railroads such a short train is not considered worthy of running in most cases. Todays trains are 9,000 foot and larger trains. In the railroads of yesteryear the load limits on the ‘heavy haul’ track was a nominal 263,000 pound load limit for cars. Todays norm is 286,000 and there are efforts in progress to raise that to 315,000… No matter how well built and maintained at right of way is, consistant operationg of 315,000 pound cars in trains of 9,000 feet and longer render that track unusable for HSR at speeds of 100 MPH or greater.
HSR and freight cannot exonomically share the track. Existing track structures through most Metropolitan areas are anything but direct and existing rights of way have
Any funds spent on speeding up passenger rail service in America is welcomed. However, upgrading track piecemeal, a little at a time, costs much much more than building a state of the art brand new HSR line in the first place… something the Europeans have already learned… Its the same with highways, its cheaper to build a brand new freeway through new right of way than it is to expand an existing freeway through the old right of way…not to mention quicker…
The voters of Florida were led down the wrong path… $25 billion to build a new high speed rail line all the way down to Miami is just as cheap as building a brand new freeway or building a number of brand new airports to handle the inceased volume of traffic… Somehow, in this election, that fact got lost in the midst of the cost of HSR…
The main reason why costs rose in Florida was the costs of rebuilding the freeways and the turnpike along with the costs of building HSR inside the median of their right of way… spending more on the freeways than on the HSR line… While the costs of building HSR is more than building a comparable twin track light rail line, they aren’t that much more…
DART has been able to build 45 miles of twin track electricified light rail line along former railroad right of way from Plano to South Dallas, Garland to South Dallas, and through a six mile tunnel under Central Expressway, and through streets downtown, for less than $2 billion… Therefore Florida should be able to build a twin track electricifed light rail line between Orlando and Tampa for around twice as much, as the distance is about twice as much…around $4 billion… Increasing the speed with a stronger bed shouldn’t double that…
The facts weren’t lost…they were just totally obscured by the Lobby that is desiring the $25 Billion…the Highway Lobby
Yes, but half of that $25 billion was to rebuild the freeways…something the highway lobby should have lobbied for…
…Overmod…Yes, that may be what I had in mind from info of some years ago…Another thought that kinda tells a similar story…The St. Johns River flows from the area of Melbourne to Jacksonville…North…! Just a bit unusual, flowing north.