Of course McKinney ave was done by a private non-profit and projects like Cincy and Tuscon are done by the Giverment…where everyone has to have there hand out…5 miles of line end up costing more then a 100 miles of class 2 regional railroad.
Was not the original McKinney Avenue operation, still the heart of the line, tracks never covered over or removed since Dallas Terminal and Railway days?
The MATA is basically an urban tourist railroad masquerading as public transit. It is run by volunteers and features a grand total of 5 operating streetcars.
It is definitely a very cool operation and I wish we had more of them, but it is by no means a model for what we need in fixed rail public transportation more broadly. Modern, robust systems may be expensive, but their success in places like Portland (particularly in terms of economic development) have shown them to be well worth the cost.
disney still offers its monorail system to any one who wants 2 use it. cost for a complete system is estimated to be 1 million per mile for a 100 mile system. cars, track, computer control. old school may trump modern?[8D]
The difference between “putting some old stuff back in service” and building a new system is the same difference as riding a bicycle around the block as compared to a round trip to the moon.
Regulations, NIMBYS, ADA, Green Beans, Bean Counters, Republicans and Democrats must all come to a consensus which is seldom possible at all, and never possible when money is the issue.
The politics of doing something useful will kill any project. Ask about the new Jersey tunnels.
ROAR
Sadly, the Lion’s point is valid.
I like the KISS or keep it simple stupid method…20% of the Metro Dullas line went to consultants. 200 million for a BRT project in Cleveland!!! and no rails for 4.5 mile of row. Lets give a 20,000,000 grant to the Baltimore Trolley Museum and see what they come up with as a private non profit
Holy smoke Dave, I saw that chart you posted and it’s enough to make one break down and weep. If all that nonsense was around 100 years ago we never would have had the New York subway system, hell, ANY transit systems AT ALL. Go back further and there wouldn’t have been any transcontinental railroad, or railroads AT ALL.
Forget the Panama Canal, Hoover Dam, the Pennsylvania Trunpike, the Empire State Building…
My God, what’s happened to us?
I got that chart off the Southeast High Speed Rail website:
They would probably come up with… a really awesome trolley museum, and the population would still be 200 million away from a real transit system.
The problem isn’t how much these things cost - it’s a big investment with bigger returns. The problem is political.
While we are at it…Baltimore does not have a real indoor light rail to subway connection. To get from light rail to subway means a scetchy walk up Lexington Market Ped Mall and being acosted by all sorts of people bums and hustlers panning some ripped off gold necklase…Its like a Sat Night Special or a 1970s episode of Starsky and Hutch.
The rails on McKinney Avenue had been covered with a relatively thin layer of asphalt. It was relatively easy to remove. The original rails that could be used (double track) ran from St. Paul and McKinney Avenue to Allen Street. They were extended along St. Paul (one curb track) to Ross Avenue, which was on the edge of downtown at the time. They were also extended northeast along McKinney Avenue (one curb track) to Hall Street, where they turned left for one block, before looping back along Cole Avenue to McKinney.
The original restoration was funded in part by Prufrock restaurants founder Phillip Cobb. He is still chairman of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. I am not sure what role his partner played in the restoration. Operations were funded voluntarily by business owners along McKinney Avenue, who saw the trolley as an opportunity to bring tourists to the restaurants and night spots along McKinney Avenue. Today the trolley is funded by the Uptown Improvement District and DART. It is route 825 in DART’s schedules.
Subsequently the line was extended further north to Blackburn, with an extension to City Place, where one can connect with DART’s light rail system. This extension was funded from a combination of private and public sources.
Currently, the McKinney Avenue trolley is being extended into the heart of the Dallas Arts District, which means running the line further down St. Paul to Federal Street, left on Federal to Olive Street, and back on Olive Street to McKinney Avenue. This extension is being funded by the federal government ($8.5 million) and Dallas City bonds.
The McKiinney Avenue trolley is a fun ride. I commuted on it for several years. I was a rarity.
Developers today must consider more external variables than was the case fifty years ago. Some of the regulations that they must comply with are superfluous. But in most instances there are sound reasons for them. I want developers, for example, to show that the air that I breath and the water that I drink will not be unduly fouled because of their projects.
The McKinney Avenue trolley is being extended. The project is on schedule. Another street car line is being built from the Dallas convention center to Oak Cliff. It is on schedule. DART has completed the largest light rail network in the United States. Given the size of the project, it ran into some expected hiccups. Some of them were regulatory; most of them were unforeseen construction delays. But the project has been completed.
I just came back from New York City. The replacement for the World Trade Center appears to be well on its way. New apartment houses and condominiums have sprung up like spring flowers on the upper west side, where I lived in the 60s and 70s. The Barclay Center in Brooklyn is a magnificent building and has sparked new buildings around it. New York is doing what it has always done. Reinventing itself! If I had a dollar for every time a pundit has written off New York, I could have retired 25 years ago.
The notion that American cannot complete worthwhile projects is not supported by the eviden
100 years ago in New York City it was easy to build. The reason a very corrupt Tammany Hall. The politicians got paid and if anyone objected tough. Initially there was a lot of resistance to the building of the IRT. The reason the elevated railways were paying the politcals. When August Belmont came on the scene he just paid a little more. When the Independent Lines were built the money came from contractors. Actually a better description of John Human pitch to Tammany Hall was think of all the money we can make from the contractors. Albany was aghast over the cost and it took a lot of effort to get state legislators to pass the needed legislation. Mostly it was a matter of the hostage legislators knowing they would not get any money out of it. The story I heard was to the effect "Thank God the Erie Canal needed rebuilding ". Isn’t politics wonderful!! Thx IGN
PS The above named Mayor should be John F Hylan the 96th mayor of New York City. Thx IGN
I have edited and depleted the above comments. I was having problems with the assisted typing in my tablet. 100 years ago in New York City it was easy to build. The reason a very corrupt Tammany Hall. The politicians got paid and if anyone objected tough. Initially there was a lot of resistance to the building of the IRT. The reason the elevated railways were paying the politcals. When August Belmont came on the scene he just paid a little more. When the Independent Lines were built the money came from contractors. Actually a better description of John Hylan’s pitch to Tammany Hall was think of all the money we can make from the contractors. Albany was aghast over the cost and it took a lot of effort to get state legislators to pass the needed legislation. Mostly it was a matter of upstate legislators knowing they would not get any money out of it. The story I heard was to the effect "Thank God the Erie Canal needed rebuilding ". Isn’t politics wonderful!! Thx IGN
When talking about New York City 100 years ago you have to step back a bit and look at the Big Picture, at least the Big Picture as Tammany Hall saw it:
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Is this good for the City?
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Will this create jobs?
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Will it make us look good?
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Can we make some money out of it?
Needless to say the answers were yes, yes, yes, and yes. I don’t think there’s anyone out there who seriously thinks the subways and the elevateds SHOULDN’T have been built, is there?
Remember the late Mike Royko’s explaination of the Daley machines success in Chicago; “Give the people all the services they expect from the city government, police, fire, sanitation, and everything else, and do it in an efficient and timely manner, and the voters will let you get away with anything!”
They weren’t far wrong.
Conversly, if the taxpayers feel they are receiving less in services than the are paying in taxes you soon end up with chaos and taxpayer ‘revolts’.
Absolutely Balt! Politicians violate the “Daley Rule” at their peril. Richard Daley may not have been the nicest guy in the world, but he knew the world he lived in and governed accordingly.
The question is whose cost and whose benefit. Unfortunately transit funding seems to be in a special category where if it isn’t a huge road for cars, some politicians will do everything possible to stop it.
Like the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, fixed rail is a solutions multiplier that has positive development effects far beyond its explicit use. There will always be myopic politicians and skeptics that only want to talk about “passenger miles” and the like, and completely ignore the full range of benefits.